For all the LEDs nonbelievers

[Bogdan]

This tank featured on RC is a living proof that under LEDs one can grow beautiful, colorful sticks. What do you say MHers?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2287628&page=4

[Viet'spride70]

I personally prefer mh, just got back to that. specially I love the phenix 14k look and I will stick with it. however never owned a radion and I don't think I would let myself get one, so I could not opinion about...

for a fact, mh has been proven the best light source to replica the natural sun for indoor hobbists for a long time. I believe it.

my 2 cent

[Bpb]

Oh how I do love a good led vs mh debate. Seriously. Some people get tired of them, but the debates are often filled with lots of eye candy as persuasion one way or another so they're always fun to read.

As far as can LEDs grow and color sps? Sure I believe so. Haven't personally tried but I would believe they can. I also think that the margin of error is smaller and it is more challenging to dial in the perfect color and intensity to create color, shape, and speed of growth of t5 or mh. More challenging and expensive LEDs are, but there's too much evidence to show that it can be done.

[Neon Reefer]

And the technology of the future is in MH ? HA! Soon enough they won't even exist except in the dinosaur section of the hobby.

[Sascha D.]

Don Duncan's tank is super sick and he has LED. If you're never seen it, it's awesome.

[Sascha D.]

That RC tank is a nano btw. It's not comparable to a tank that would need MH. An LED flashlight would give you 100 par at the bottom in that tank. It is a nice tank though, even if the photos are edited.

[Bpb]

I agree on both previous points. Nano tanks are a whole other ball game. It is a lot easier to get adequate coverage on such a small footprint. And you are absolutely correct, Don Duncan's tank is spectacular. I have seen it in person myself. It is proof that LEDs can work.

I will be honest though, the technology argument doesn't really interest me too much. I'm not too concerned with what the landscape of technological advancement looks like as far as reef lighting goes.

I know at this point, I have not heard a single person complain that they have bad growth or colors using radiums. As a matter of fact I have only heard glowing comments and can only echo those myself having tried them now. While in 10 or 15 years metal halide technology may or may not be slowly phased out, it is currently available, and works really well, and that is good enough for me.

[Neon Reefer]

While in 10 or 15 years metal halide technology may or may not be slowly phased out, it is currently available, and works really well, and that is good enough for me.

3-5 is more likely than 10-15

[victoly]

People have been saying mh is dead for years now. And yet, it's still around ...

[Bpb]

That's true, I've only been in the hobby for two years, but even before I got my first saltwater tank I lurked on reef central for a couple years before, dreaming about one day starting a salt tank and doing research, and I even remember then, back when 1 watt LEDs were all the rage, people swore metal halides would be gone any day now. I really do think they'll continue to be available for the distant foreseeable future...and if not, and they become illegal to use, and every bulb manufacturer goes out of business...well then that'll be that, but both our predictions are just guesses. I'm only concerned with what is here and now as far as the hobby goes. Keep in mind this coming from an open minded reefer on the subject of lighting. Again, LEDs are cool, but until for some reason my hand is forced to spend $500-$1500 to change my lighting, why would I? Not Implying this thread is encouraging anyone to change, but the point is valid

[Gig 'em @ NDstructible]

VHOs are king! All this talk about LED vs MH is silly child's banter compared to the all might VHO.

As an LED user myself, I still keep my MH around because I still think it performs better than LEDs, perhaps not as efficiently, but better nonetheless. I am considering plumbing two tanks together and lighting one tank with LED and one with MH, split colonies between the two, and see which lighting method performs best in my house. We'll see.

[Bpb]

VHOs are king! All this talk about LED vs MH is silly child's banter compared to the all might VHO.

As an LED user myself, I still keep my MH around because I still think it performs better than LEDs, perhaps not as efficiently, but better nonetheless. I am considering plumbing two tanks together and lighting one tank with LED and one with MH, split colonies between the two, and see which lighting method performs best in my house. We'll see.

Funny you mention that about vhos lol.

After a total of 5 emails, and 3 sponsor forum postings that have gone unanswered from ...**a certain led strip manufacturer based out of Austin... they've lost a potential customer and I'm actually picking up some vhos tomorrow to run as supplements to my mh. Really bummed. Really wanted a custom led strip so I could enjoy that awesome sunrise sunset and royal blue pop LEDs provide but couldn't ever get any help and a month is more than enough time to expect at least a response

[mFrame]

VHOs are king! All this talk about LED vs MH is silly child's banter compared to the all might VHO.

As an LED user myself, I still keep my MH around because I still think it performs better than LEDs, perhaps not as efficiently, but better nonetheless. I am considering plumbing two tanks together and lighting one tank with LED and one with MH, split colonies between the two, and see which lighting method performs best in my house. We'll see.

Funny you mention that about vhos lol.

After a total of 5 emails, and 3 sponsor forum postings that have gone unanswered from ...**a certain led strip manufacturer based out of Austin... they've lost a potential customer and I'm actually picking up some vhos tomorrow to run as supplements to my mh. Really bummed. Really wanted a custom led strip so I could enjoy that awesome sunrise sunset and royal blue pop LEDs provide but couldn't ever get any help and a month is more than enough time to expect at least a response

Be fair to our sponsors, though they do have dedicated forums they are by no means the primary means of communication. The forums are generally a way for them to notify clubs and members about sales or promotions, not for providing support. There are literally hundreds of club sites and forums and monitoring them all for questions about their products would not be productive. Almost all sponsors have their own sites/forums or contact info and are generally great about responding to direct questions.

If there is a particular sponsor you're trying to get hold of and being unsuccessful, drop me a PM and I'll see if I can help.

[Euphoric Eulogy]

Go MH Go!

[Reburn]

Bqb, I know I will get shunned off the forum for the advice to use such antiquated technology, but have you tried calling. I have had really great responses to my questions by calling them. I use their fixtures on 2 of my planted tanks. I can't speak to their Reef fixtures though.

I don't have much to say on the led vs mh topic. I think people should use what they like and works for their setup the best. I can see advatages and disadvantages to each type of lighting.

[Planeden]

yeah, i called them, too. but, they were so responsive to me, i wonder if you have the wrong email adress or something? or you have five messages from them in your spam folder.

[Bpb]

Lol never thought I'd say this, but let's steer this back to a mh vs led debate lol. I shouldn't have mentioned the comments about a forum sponsor, as they do make a spectacular product and hope to own one still. That being said. To answer specific questions. Positive I've got the right emails because I actually got a response initially, but that stopped after one reply, and I check my spam folder religiously because I do a lot of Craigslist coral selling here locally and ad replies often go to spam automatically. Calling is tough because my work schedule and nature of my job makes a phone call like that difficult. Web browsing and emails I can do late night or close the window at a moments notice. Don't want to get in trouble for personal calls or have to hang up mid order.

Anyhow, all good. Not the end of the world. Back to mh vs led

[Sascha D.]

When I first started growing corals in this hobby MH were so expensive that they weren't an option. Most people I saw on forums used PC or VHO, with an occassional T-5 user in there. I don't know why PC and VHO were phased out. It could be because people started to make more money and could afford better equipment. It could be because they are inferior products that were forced out when MH prices came down. Either way MH doesn't face the same barriers that forced PC and VHO out of the market. LED is neither cheaper nor higher quality and is not extraordinarily better at growing corals. Really the only thing LED has going for it is that it produces less heat and uses less electricity. Until LED prices goes down, and the quality goes up, MH will still be around. However, I will say that LED is going to phase out all other lighting options in the nano tank market.

[+OU12004]

I can't believe people are still using MH, do you people not care about the Earth? Wait I work in the energy field, so every please use MH i need to buy more coral.

[FarmerTy]

My thoughts are this. Initially, it was a question of whether LEDs could even keep SPS corals. I think that question has been answered fully, else we wouldn't have local tanks like Juiceman's, Don Duncan's, Richard L's, and the myriad of others that have been using LEDs over their tanks for quite some time and keep a lot of SPS successfully.

Do they keep them better than MH, who knows... and honestly, if nobody can tell right now, then who cares. To me, that means that they can perform the same function and its just merely down to preference, or as Sascha highlighted, economic pressures. If one was superbly cheaper than the other, with both giving roughly the same results, then to the cheaper option the crown goes.

My preference between the two is MHs. Just purely preference based (okay, a tad economically-based as well since I don't have $1k-2k to drop on new LEDs right now, I'd rather get a larger CaRX) but I just enjoy the full spectrum lighting more. It might just be in my head, but to me, I see gradations of color better with MHs versus LED tanks that I've seen. It's no knock on the tanks as they are stunning, and the LEDs really make the colors pop on the SPS, but to me, I miss out on the subtle changes of color... the more natural look... the subtle hues of color... that I feel you lose out on with LEDs since they are so spectrum-specific in their color reproduction. The best analogy I can think of is digital versus analog... you want 420nm on LEDs, here it is... bam, exactly 420nm. You want 420nm on MHs... you get some 410nm... some 430nm... etc. You get the full spectrum with the focus on 420nm but also everything close to it as well. I may be rambling here, but I feel like there is much to be appreciated in between the wavelengths we desire and the wavelengths we also get in a full spectrum lighting source versus a more precise lighting source like LEDs.

To be honest, I actually prefer the colors of SPS I see under T5 the best, but I just don't want to pay for 8-10 bulbs each year at $25/bulb and it drives me nuts that you have to have every bulb perfectly positioned or it won't turn on, but that is another gripe for another thread.

I appreciate people's passion for one lighting technology or the other... for me, I'm not a fanboy of one or the other. I just appreciate what I get from my MHs and if someone gives me some free LEDs to throw over the tank, I wouldn't turn them down either. If I like the look, I'll keep it. If I don't, I won't. It's that simple... either lighting choice though, I know it'll grow my SPS and they will look good under either lighting, it's just whatever my preference may be for the look of the tank.

[Sascha D.]

That's how we know you're passionate!

[Timfish]

. . . I don't know why PC and VHO were phased out . . .

Legislation, laws making it mandatory for fixtures to meet certain effeciency standards and the stricter disposal requirements of some states and municipalities regarding mercury. T12 bulbs dissapeared from home supply stores long before they were discontinued for the specialty applications like aquariums.

Einstein may roll over in his grave for this laymans description but irregardless of the lighting technology, be it nuclear fusion, MH, fluorescent or LED a photon is a photon is a photon. A photon of blue light has the same energy as a photon of red light. The difference is wave length. Blue light has a shorter wavelength ergo more photons and more energy than red light which has a longer wavelength.

LED technology is inherently more directional than either MH or fluorescent. This allows for much more effeciently designed fixtures that can but more light per watt used in a certain area than MH or fluorescent. My own PAR measurements between MH and LED, depending on the color temperature of the MH bulb and reflector design, LED fixtures, on average, only need to be roughly a third the wattage of a MH to acheive the same light intensities at the corals. (One of my conversions the LEDs were only a couple of inches closer to the water than the MH using Sunlight Supply's Lumenmax Elite fixture which is one of the best designs on the market and 225 watts of LEDs replaced 3 250 watt DE 14,000K bulbs with PAR readings higher throughout the tank with the exception of three small areas directly under the bulbs.) The differences in MH bulbs has to be considered. My own test between an Ushio 14,000K, and Phoenix 14,000K and 20,000K in the same fixtures with the same ballasts showed the Phoenix 14,000K bulb only put out roughly 70% the light of the Ushio and the 20,000K was only about 40% the output of the Ushio. Looking ast BML's XB series their 14,000K is 95% the output of thier 12,000K and their 20,000K is more than 80%. I'm not surprised that people have problems switching to MH and some switch back. Unless measurements are taken it's luck that light fields are close enough that some corals don't have some issue with the conversion.

As far as the LED having narrower bands than MH some of the spectral charts I've seen for MH are pretty spiky. And the higher the color temperature the spikeir they get. LEDs Obviously can put out a very narrow spectrum. You can use just one type of LED and have ALL your light in a very narrow band. This also lets us use multiple LEDs to design a fixture with a much wider spectral output than MH.

As far as what's best for corals lower color temperature bulbs around 6500K are reportedly much better at growing corals than the high K bulbs we use to produce colorful specimens. What's more the individual species has to be taken into account. A good example of this is the stoney corals Porites porites and P. banneri. The former is found from the surface down to depths of 160', very adaptable. It's sybling species however is only found from 15' to 30' indicating it is much more particular about the light it gets, it can't have to much red and it can't be too blue either. Sanjy Joshi did a small experiment, http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/3/aafeature1 , that looked at how corals color developed under 20,000K MH, 10,000K MH and T5. Besides an interesting look at the problem of standardizing colors under different light sources it showed corals having different growth rates under different lights, i.e. the light field (spectral output) that grew one coral better wasn't what grew a different species better. With the adaptability of LEDs we know can customize small areas of our tanks for specific corals with a much greater degree of control than we ever have had with MH or fluorescent bulbs.

[jestep]

Don Duncan's tank is super sick and he has LED. If you're never seen it, it's awesome.

His tank sold me on them. I ended up getting the same fixtures he has as well although I still managed to bleach half my tank running them at only 25% switching from 500W MH.

My chiller doesn't really come on anymore which is a big plus as well.

[FarmerTy]

Don's tank is amazing, one of my favorites in Austin for sure. When I saw his, that definitely tipped the point for me believing it can be done with LEDs. I have no doubts though that we put T5s, MHs, LEDs, heck even VHOs, and it will still look amazing!

That is just purely down to husbandry and stocking choices. Don has primo SPS in his tank only and he makes sure he gives them the best environment to grow. To me, on his system, the lights are an after thought. Plus, that giant achilles makes me forget there are even corals in there sometimes. To me, that's more kudos to Don and his meticulous creation of his reef tank, than purely just LEDs. For me though, he's my gold standard for an LED lit tank in Austin that focuses on SPS.

[Gig 'em @ NDstructible]

One note to add about LEDs is they can be so efficient and intensive that they can add too much of a good thing and end up harming corals. A little less than a year ago I added an Orphek Atlantik to my tank and acclimated my corals and then let the lights run at a high % output. For some reason my corals weren't growing well and lost color. After Listening to Dana Riddle's presentation on LEDs and light intensity with SPS I realized that most corals are actually exposed to long periods of dark environments due to frequent rain storms in the tropics. I went home and ramped down the light intensity on my LEDs and now my corals have colored up beautifully and are starting to grow new branches. LEDs are efficient, but some times we have to be careful with them too.