Wardlaw Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 i have been reading this forum and others for about a year now and i do not see how anyone can afford to get started in this hobby i don't like to purchase anything more than once and i like to go big or go home any advice for someone who aspires to build a 210gal with coral and fish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bige Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 It's expensive. Do your research. Read read read. Then you can minimize the double purchase. Also aquatek has two used 210 for sale. One is 600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Welcome. There's probably a more appropriate price/size tank if budget is any concern now or in the foreseeable future. 150+ tanks get extremely expensive in setup costs for both equipment and livestock, and are continuously expensive in routine operation and maintenance. Most of the tanks I've seen in this range are owned by people who have no problem justifying the cost. If budget is going to be a concern now or in the future, I would seriously recommend tempering down to a smaller tank. Depending on the dimensions and setup, you can get a lot of bang out of a smaller tank. Do a lot of research and planning. You don't want to make wrong purchases as it's almost impossible to recoup 100% of your cost on equipment when trying to resell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardlaw Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 Welcome. There's probably a more appropriate price/size tank if budget is any concern now or in the foreseeable future. 150+ tanks get extremely expensive in setup costs for both equipment and livestock, and are continuously expensive in routine operation and maintenance. Most of the tanks I've seen in this range are owned by people who have no problem justifying the cost. If budget is going to be a concern now or in the future, I would seriously recommend tempering down to a smaller tank. Depending on the dimensions and setup, you can get a lot of bang out of a smaller tank. Do a lot of research and planning. You don't want to make wrong purchases as it's almost impossible to recoup 100% of your cost on equipment when trying to resell it. Thanks for the responses. I will continue to research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardlaw Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 It's expensive. Do your research. Read read read. Then you can minimize the double purchase. Also aquatek has two used 210 for sale. One is 600. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+etannert Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 You have to decide what is more important to you - your determination to "go big or go home" (in which case, save up for a long time, make an equipment list and buy things one at a time as good deals become available, and be ready to plan/buy/wait for a couple years before you ever put water in) or your desire to get started in the hobby. A massive tank like a 150+ is rarely going to be a positive learning experience, and this hobby has a learning curve regardless of how much research you do in advance. A 40 or 55 gallon reef can be set up and maintained much less expensively and offers sufficient volume for stability and a variety of fish and coral options. Smaller tanks can be beautiful - stop by if you want to see a variety of under-40g tanks, all run on different systems/equipment but all very nice. If you buy used you can generally recoup at least 75% of your expenses when you resell, which makes a smaller "starter" tank financially feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardlaw Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 You have to decide what is more important to you - your determination to "go big or go home" (in which case, save up for a long time, make an equipment list and buy things one at a time as good deals become available, and be ready to plan/buy/wait for a couple years before you ever put water in) or your desire to get started in the hobby. A massive tank like a 150+ is rarely going to be a positive learning experience, and this hobby has a learning curve regardless of how much research you do in advance. A 40 or 55 gallon reef can be set up and maintained much less expensively and offers sufficient volume for stability and a variety of fish and coral options. Smaller tanks can be beautiful - stop by if you want to see a variety of under-40g tanks, all run on different systems/equipment but all very nice. If you buy used you can generally recoup at least 75% of your expenses when you resell, which makes a smaller "starter" tank financially feasible. I am really excited to begin. Maybe my initial goals were a bit lofty. I know there will always be limits, but I would like to keep a great variety of animals. What would you say is the greatest cost in maintenance? Do you run a skimmer, fuge, sump? Thanks for your input. I feel more learned just hearing from each of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I'm gonna echo etannert. Start smaller than 210. not all of the equipment will scale (lights, skimmer, sump, etc) but you're venturing into a vast wilderness, and starting with that big of a tank is risky. 55-75 gallons is a pretty good price entry point IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremeEVOx Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Start with a 40 breeder. Excellent footprint for a tank, and plenty of room for awesome corals. Or a Biocube 29 or 34. Awesome tanks. Start small then work your way up. I'm glad I had my noob screw ups on my 8 gallon. I can't imagine crashing a 100+ gallon tank. Good luck, welcome to arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+etannert Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Greatest cost is the initial outlay for equipment. This is where research and a willingness to buy used will help. A good light fixture is worth the money. Once you get into upkeep, no cost is crippling but there is a steady, low-level expense that you need to be aware of: - salt - most people do 5-10% weekly water changes; on a bigger tank you might be able to go a month but would need to do a bigger change. So imagine on a 200g tank, if you did a 20% monthly change, you'd need 40g of saltwater. That's about $40 worth of salt per month, or $480/yr. - water - buying RODI at the store or buying an RODI unit - the more water you make the more frequently you will have to change your filters and resin - supplements - mainly, alk/calc/mag. There are budget options for this (the BRS mix-your-own supplements) but when you're just learning how to keep a tank stable, it's good to go with quality, dependable, proven brands like the B-Ionic supplements. If you are dosing 200mg+ per day because you have a 200g tank, you can easily spend $100 a month on this.- bulbs - depending on the number and type of bulbs you have - PCs should be changed every 6-9mos and T5s/metal halides every 9-12mos. A big tank like a 200+g would likely require 3-4 metal halides; depending on the bulbs you go with, this could cost $100-250. I have a Solana 34g with a 150w metal halide, Tunze 9002 skimmer, and a Tunze Osmolator auto top-off. I also have a Marine Color dosing pump, although most people wouldn't consider a dosing pump to be must-have equipment. I have always bought used and resold as I've upgraded; I started with a $60 used BC14, next tank was an $80 used NC24, and finally I got this $200 used Solana with stand. My skimmer and ATO I bought used. I've never made back 100% on selling equipment, but I since I buy used I don't loose a lot on the resell price. We have four tanks in the house (I also have a pico, $20 used, and my boyfriend has a 20g and a 30g), so it's a little difficult for me to say exactly what I spend on upkeep for that one tank, but I have a nice variety of softies, LPS and SPS as well as fish, and it's relatively easy to keep up. Maybe someone who keeps a big tank could chime in with real cost estimates... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bimmerzs Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Whatever route you take make sure to buy quality equipment, I like to say "do it right or don't do it at all. Quality does not mean the latest and greatest or most expensive, that is where research comes in. A tank in the 60G to 90G is a lot more forgiving to a newbie learning about water chemistry and how the elements interact and affect each other. A ph monitor really will show you what a test kit can't on how adding certain thing's influence. A ro/di unit ensures you are putting in good water, an auto top-off helps with the all important stability aspect as does a refractometer. Read, read and read some more before jumping in. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb in Austin Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 What E said. Biggest cost is equipment outlay. Buy it right, buy it once definitely applies in this hobby. Do not skimp on lights and skimmer. Do buy a RODI unit. And I agree with everyones advice about starting smaller. I prefer 75g for a good compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerrickH Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I say 90g min starting. Just my .02c but larger volume is easier to manage. Also, if you go big first time, then you wont have to do the expensive "upgrade" down the road. If I had it all to do over again, I would have went 250g the first time and bought all the equipment to match that, instead of constantly upgrading. I say find someone thats "tearing down" and buy the whole lot. Would be a heck of a lot cheaper than piecing it together over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Bio)³ Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I enjoyed starting at 29 biocube. To me half the fun is the build so I enjoyed the upgrading and building new setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 The easiest way to save money is on the tank itself. A new 200g tank and stand will cost in excess of 1500-2k+. With a month or two of patience you can get the same tank for 500 used. It will probably be undrilled, which will cost around 100 to remedy. After that you can buy a 55g used tank and build your own sump for 50. It doesn't matter if it's scratched because it's hidden anyway. Plumbing will run you another 50-100 but you can do it yourself in an hour or two. Pumps I always buy new but sales are super common; 100ish for return pump, about 40ish for each circ pump. You can save on lights by building your own LEDs or buying used. It really depends how much light you want and what you want to keep. Starter lighting will run about 100-200 + 40 for a hanging kit. Everything past these essentials are luxuries. You don't really need them, but they help reduce the workload for you. People have plenty of success without skimmers and some even prefer it. One thing to keep in mind is that the tank, stand, sump, and, generally, plumbing are one-time investments. Unless something happens or you physically upgrade, you don't have to buy them twice. Bulbs get replaced every 6-12 months depending on usage. Pumps get replaces as needed, typically every 5 years or so. Tank 500 Drilling 100 Pumps 500 Sump 100 Lights 200 Total 1400ish General month to month upkeep: salt, water, electricity, part replacement alottment = maybe 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardlaw Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 You guys are awesome! Thank you for all of the various opinions. I appreciate everyone's willingness to help, especially since I have'nt gotten my feet wet yet. I think I will stand in middle ground and go with a 90. I really like the dimensions. (and so does the fiance.....if that matters!!) I still have plenty of reading to do before I dive in. I began initially with Callahan's No Nonsense Guide and I have read through most of the resources in the tab above. Do any of you have any recommendations for a must have guide/book?.....sorry for all of the questions, but the various feedback really is helpful in guiding me in what I feel is the best and safest direction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I would strongly encourage you to get the third volume of Delbeek and Sprung's "Reef Aquarium" They are the only authors I have found who explain the different filtering methodologies that are being used in an unbiased manner. Unfortunately you will find individuals that promote thier methodology as the only way to maintain corals. You will also find people who like thier toys and it seems thier setups are more about figuring out how many gadgets can be added. I have been keeping saltwater since 1988 and maintaining aquariums professionally since 1995 and have seen a multitude of different setups. One thing I realized early on is success depends on patience, intellegent selection of animals and propper maintenance. Having the best equipment in the world is pointless if the system is not maintained or poor judgment is used in the selection of animals. Systems can be very simple, this one is a filterless 240 gallon system with 2 250 watt DE MH and two Korralia 2 and two Aqquaclear 70 power heads for circulation. Water changes total 60 gallons a month (20 gallons every ten days) using tapwater. The only supplements are aragamight and very occasionally superbuffer. Most corals were added as small frags. This 500 gallon system is much more complicated with multiple lighted and cryptic refugiums. Equipment is seven 250 watt DE MH, 2 main pumps pushing 6000 gph through the whole system and multiple power heads adding another 20X internally along with both calcium and kalkwasser reactors, no skimmer. Water changes are 30 gallons weekly with RO/DI water. One advantage of forums like ARC that I have found beneficial is the huge experience base it makes available. Like I said I've been keeping fish and corals for 24 years but I have found this forum still has been very beneficial and I'm quite comfortable saying it has improved my skills as an aquarist. There is so much going on in our aquariums and on reefs it is impossible for a single person to have exepierence with every animal available and every piece of equipment. Welcome to the club! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckyuv Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 i have a 30g reef that i have dropped countless dollars into but have finally got it stable and learned, compared to my tank a 90g is huge and is plenty big for learning! there is a ton of fellow reefers down south here that can help you at any point in time. timfish is right as well delbek and sprung is a great book to read and anthony calfo has awesome reading material. anthony calfo book of coral propogation is what got me in the hobby and i have always followed his methods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckyuv Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 oh and check out aquadome! its down south and they are such a huge help! welcome to arc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I think the biggest (worst) surprises for me cost-wise were the live rock (LR) and lights. If you want a reef tank, you need plenty of both. You can try to buy second-hand LR over time as people break down their tanks, and you can build your own LED setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esacjack Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I'm on a penny budget as well, I took the approach of buying a tank on craigslist cheap. Then bought a stand for it. Then had it drilled. Then from there I did as many DIY's as possible to save money. The other thing to keep in mind here, is a 90g tank, with sump, you're looking at about 120gallons of potential water. So you'll either need to invest in premade water and jugs, or start pricing an RO/DI unit and water storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 DIY is the best way to go. It's more fun and it makes it more of a hobby than a piece of furniture. Buy your LR from the forums and you'll save 70%. Smaller tanks are harder to take care of than larger tanks. The more water volume you have, the more slowly the parameters change. Larger tanks are more forgiving of mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+brian.srock Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I started my tank 3 years ago as a FOWLR. I did so much reading and started my tank on a budget with just buying sand and salt and filling with tap water. After my tank cycled then I bought 80lb LR off of craigslist for $2/lb. Then pumps Then lights and so on until now I'm adding a twin tank It basically comes down to exactly what you want but you will always miss the boat because there are hundreds of thousands of different tank designs and unless money is no object then you can't have them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardlaw Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 I started my tank 3 years ago as a FOWLR. [img=http://www.austinreefclub.com//public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif] http://www.austinreefclub.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=23928'>gallery_1271_186_40196.jpg I did so much reading and started my tank on a budget with just buying sand and salt and filling with tap water. After my tank cycled then I bought 80lb LR off of craigslist for $2/lb. Then pumps Then lights and so on until now I'm adding a twin tank [img=http://www.austinreefclub.com//public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif] http://www.austinreefclub.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=23929'>post-1271-0-94600600-1335451058_thumb.jpg It basically comes down to exactly what you want but you will always miss the boat because there are hundreds of thousands of different tank designs and unless money is no object then you can't have them all. Slowly buying supplies as recommended......rodi..dry rock...etc....gonna try dr Tim's when I start, but I still have at least nine months to wait...wedding planning is creating budget conflicts....I'll power through and start a build thread when theres something to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardlaw Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 DIY is the best way to go. It's more fun and it makes it more of a hobby than a piece of furniture. Buy your LR from the forums and you'll save 70%. Smaller tanks are harder to take care of than larger tanks. The more water volume you have, the more slowly the parameters change. Larger tanks are more forgiving of mistakes. Really appreciate all the info everyone! Research is half the fun thus far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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