First Time Build

[Bpb]

I'll be interested in seeing which one you choose. Brittle stars are so awesomely creepy looking. I'd like one too but not at the risk of my fish.

[Planeden]

I'll be interested in seeing which one you choose. Brittle stars are so awesomely creepy looking. I'd like one too but not at the risk of my fish.

you're depending on me?!? that's the wrong basket to put an egg in, there. the only salty thing that has been alive in my care for more than a week is a hermit crab. i'll keep you posted on my other complex livestock like seaweed and pods .

my mistake: i fogot, my diatoms and GHA is doing quite well, too.

[+brian.srock]

I have about a 10" brittle star in my DT and he's ever attacked anyone. He's always in the same spot under my rocks so you can see his arms most days and when I feed sometimes he comes out on the sand bed. I also have a 18" + yellow banded sea star in my sump that I wouldn't put with anything else. I think their worse than greens but so cool so I had to have him. Right now he's sharing space with my long nose decorator crab that I mistakenly put in there waiting for a buyer and thought for sure it was a goner but he's still good. I did catch my yellow banded eating my chocolate chip sea stars arm but with the name chocolate chip who wouldn't want to try a bite?

[subsea]

You got it ! Your bio load is super light right now, and your bacterial colony is young and probably not maximized. Your macro is helping your bacterial colony get rid of nutrients. I don't know that there is a rule of thumb per se, but I don't like adding more than a few fish at a time.

At this point, it is a balancing act.

Because I believe in dynamic equilibrium, I continue to feed heavy and observe bioindicators. It is very normal in natural cycles to go thru a progression of micro and macro cycles. Similar to a climax forrest dominant species, but at each micro level. This is the part of reefkeeping that intrigues me. No telling what is going to pop out of the rock. It is also during these different macro cycles that janitors become an integral part of tank maintenance in sand beds and rock surfaces. However, I consider these janitors to be the next platform of food for the reef tank. It is not necessary to have a refugium if your display tank sand bed is filed with multiplying snails and worms. Cucumbers that consume sand bed detrivores may should be eliminated from livestock if you want your sandbed to reach its potential to process waste and produce food for the tank.

With respect to fish in a reef tank, they are the single largest contributor of nutrients into the reef tank. If you limit fish, you will have much more options on what thrives in your reef tank.

Patrick

[Planeden]

Chocolate chips are my favorites too, but I didn't know they came in brittle star form.

Well, I don't want something that will eat all my worms. I thought there were some cucumbers that are recommended for DSB. I will have to look into that and confirm it. I may also have to rethink my yellow watchman goby for the same reason. but, I'm hoping to let my sandbed establish itself for a long time before considering putting in the watchman, or any sand sifter, hoping to find that balance where he won't be able to sift sand critters into extinction.

Have to look into cucumbers first though, since that would be going in much sooner.

Gotta get my work finished so I can get back on my research. I just got word that I'll be traveling Wednesday and Thursday. So Friday will be the earliest I can consider hitting the fish store.

Thanks guys

[esacjack]

i wouldnt throw a cuke in there yet.. (cucumber) Yellow cucumbers are beautiful, but require a good saturated water column to feed properly. Additionally, when cukes die, they release toxins. It's important that yous tart with something hardy. Try a damsel for starters or heck, even false percula are super hardy for the first fish. I personally always use a damsel as my "Ensign number 3" with my new tanks. Be sure to follow your QT procedure and observe,observe,observe!

[Bpb]

If you're gonna go with a damsel I would highly recommend an Azure Damsel. From everything I've read they're very non aggressive compared to all other damsels. I've got one and he has been an absolute sweet heart lol. Never attacked anyone. Even when my royal gramma was added last and was trying to stake out his territory, the damsel did little more than spike his dorsal fins up and look mean for a week. He's never chased or bitten anything

[JamesL]

*in a dooming foreboding voice* Once a damsel enters, there is no turning back.... *end voice*

I wish I had Bpb's luck with damsels. I got antsy when cycling my 75g and put some Talbot Damsels in ... they have become the scourge of the tank in thinking they own the whole thing (doesn't help they regularly spawn). The pick and chase everything that won't fight back. And forget ever trying to catch the little buggers... they are fast and dart into holes.

On the plus side, they are inquisitive, and you always see them out and about swimming through the whole tank. My tangs and angel tend to be a lot more shy. And my skunk clown just hangs around the front of the tank.

[Planeden]

i wouldnt throw a cuke in there yet.. (cucumber) Yellow cucumbers are beautiful, but require a good saturated water column to feed properly. Additionally, when cukes die, they release toxins. It's important that yous tart with something hardy. Try a damsel for starters or heck, even false percula are super hardy for the first fish. I personally always use a damsel as my "Ensign number 3" with my new tanks. Be sure to follow your QT procedure and observe,observe,observe!

i was thinking about the detrivore cukes like the tiger tail. they are supposed to be good at keep sand clean, but not eat the good worms and stuff. perhaps try to find one that will not grow to 12" long. in a 36" tank, he may not be able to fully extend without curving himself around. wouldn't want him to end up with a back ache or scoliosis are anything. but you may be right about waiting until i get more pooping things. i may just start with a bunch of hermits and a few nasrius snails to eat the algae. a sea monster or two, also.

damsels were not really in my stocking plan for the tank. but my stocking plan is hardly set. we do want clowns, so percs may be a good place to start. but i thought they should go in later for territory reasons.

i have thrown a few shrimp pellets in my QT to see how the cycle is. so far it doesn't seem like they have broken down enough to really get anything get rid of. but, it's lunchtime, so i can go ahead and run the tests in a minute.

so, you think it is ok to put in a couple of corals and a fish right now (well, after QT)? it seems that most people just start with corals for a while then add fish after a few months. this would also let my pods build up a bit more. i have a few in the DT and more in my fuge. i know that they reproduce in the fuge and then get into the DT, but I don't seem to be getting a lot of transfer yet. they seem to just be happily sitting on the macro eating whatever they have to eat.

If you're gonna go with a damsel I would highly recommend an Azure Damsel. From everything I've read they're very non aggressive compared to all other damsels. I've got one and he has been an absolute sweet heart lol. Never attacked anyone. Even when my royal gramma was added last and was trying to stake out his territory, the damsel did little more than spike his dorsal fins up and look mean for a week. He's never chased or bitten anything

i'll check him out. i do want to try to have a peaceful tank.

current thoughts on stocking are (order of memory, not order of stocking):

a clown or two

pearly jawfish

prawn goby (was thinking watchman, but may avoid the sand sifter)

three chromis

royal gramma

if that seems overstocked we may opt to remove the chromis and go with another non-schooling but similar fish.

[Planeden]

*in a dooming foreboding voice* Once a damsel enters, there is no turning back.... *end voice*

ha. nice voice. it seems that most people's experience matches yours more than Bpb's. I'm not sure if it is the Azule, but the Consiencios Marine Aquarist did list ONE possibly non-aggressive damsel that you may put in your system if you absolutely had to have a damsel.

[Bpb]

I recognize my experience has been enough of an exception that I actually won't be trying any more damsels, ever. The reputation is too strong. I've had mine for a year, and he was in someone else's care for about 5 years before me, so he's definitely an old fish. Only way I'd do damsels again is if it were in a small tank, probably like a biocube or something, with only zoas and softies, and ONLY damsels. I'd probably overstock it in the same way people overstock african cichlid tanks. This is all just brainstorming. I have ZERO intention of actually doing that.

Back to the topic at hand. I dont think your proposed stocking list looks overstocked. You'll likely rarely ever see the jawfish or the goby. Not like they'll disappear, but they'll likely kind of hide and pop out on occasion, so realistically you'll be looking at 6 small fish swimming around. In a tank that size I think that's about right. You could maybe add one or two more very small ones, like a cardinal or something. It seems kind of like you're leaning toward a more softie/lagoon type tank. I don't think having a light bioload, and ultra low nutrients would be to your advantage here, so I think you have a good number of fish there.

[Planeden]

thank Bpb, for being in aggieland, you're alright .

ok, so the damsel thing is done. no damsels.

as for the jawfish, i have heard that they are quite active in playing with their nest trying to get it just right. i just hope it settles in a nest near the front of the tank as opposed to behind the rock where i would have to set up a system of mirrors to see it.

i'm not sure about the prawn goby and how often i'll see it. that's on the girlfriend's must have list. she can deal with the consequences of that .

i'm glad it doesn't seem overstocked though. i am definitely not going for a UNLS. i will take the stocking slowly and see when it looks right and try to guess what the filtration can handle. i'm not sure that going with a lagoon means that you want, or can have, a lot of stock. one of subsea's tanks is 75 gallons and only has a few small fish in it. another one he has (i think a 90 gallon) has a bunch of fish in it. neither are low nutrient systems. so, i'm not sure that stocking is much different in the various types of systems. either way, i don't want to push my stocking until i have more experience.

someone compared it to cooking once, which i thought was brilliant. in the beginning you follow the recipe and keep a close eye on it (testing and whatnot). once you know what you are doing you can start tweaking and use visual indicators in lieu of testing.

[Planeden]

lunchtime testing results

DT: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 5 ppm nitrates, 0 phosphate. happy

QT: 0.5 ppm ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates. grrrr. i expected an instant cycle (or close to it). at the very least i expected to have ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates all appearing simultaneously. i know i am probably being impatient (set up 36 hours ago), but i have never had success cycling a tank with nothing but the power filter to hold any bacteria. drumming fingers, gnashing teeth, and waiting patiently.

maybe i should toss my eheim 2213 on it. that would have plenty of filtration and i would have no trouble getting a lot of flow. .

on a bright note: my drs. f&s order arrives on friday. sadly, my filters are on back order so i will be buying water for a little while. but included in the order is a small powerhead for the QT. hopefully small enough.

[JamesL]

I am not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but jawfish are known jumpers.. especially when they are first put in and have not established their burrow. I had one that kept jumping into my overflow box for days. So if you have an open top tank, I would consider screening it for a short while after adding the jawfish.

[Planeden]

thanks. i do intend on screening it. i would like to do that before i put any of the fish in, just in case. i think that my overflow box is high enough that the screen will keep him out of there. if not, i will look into a way to cover that too. it's kind of funny to me that the bottom dwellers (gobies and jawfishes) are the jumpers. "i'm just going to chill out in my nice safe hole. OH NO, danger, quick to the top of the tank and over the side...".

[+SChrisEV]

Your number are good, but do you have anything in the tank? Sorry if that was stated before. If you don't have SOMETHING in there to process food (eat and poop) then you will not cultivate the beneficial bacteria that you need. Well unless you add some ammonia directly. Again sorry if you covered this already, 10 pages of posts is a lot to read. I started with some live rock from a fellow ARC members tank so I had a decent start. Then added a small blenny once my numbers were good. My two cents, don't put anything in there that you would not put in your established tank. You can also add small CUC to the tank to ensure that the beneficial bacteria are growing and being fed.

Once you are ready for a tiger tail cucumber, if you go that route, let me know. The one I bought split, so I now have two. They do a great job of cleaning the sand bed. Every morning I have a pile of... "sand pellets" that then just "dissolve" into the sand. Both halves do get pretty long when stretched out.

[Planeden]

Your number are good, but do you have anything in the tank? Sorry if that was stated before. If you don't have SOMETHING in there to process food (eat and poop) then you will not cultivate the beneficial bacteria that you need. Well unless you add some ammonia directly. Again sorry if you covered this already, 10 pages of posts is a lot to read. I started with some live rock from a fellow ARC members tank so I had a decent start. Then added a small blenny once my numbers were good. My two cents, don't put anything in there that you would not put in your established tank. You can also add small CUC to the tank to ensure that the beneficial bacteria are growing and being fed.

Once you are ready for a tiger tail cucumber, if you go that route, let me know. The one I bought split, so I now have two. They do a great job of cleaning the sand bed. Every morning I have a pile of... "sand pellets" that then just "dissolve" into the sand. Both halves do get pretty long when stretched out.

Thanks chris,

yeah sorry about the length. i have lots a questions and people were very generous to answer them. i also ramble .

my tank just finished cycling, so nothing is really in there per se. the shrimp that i used to get ammonia in the tank is still there. i figure i will let the clean up crew take care of that, too. i am also adding a small pinch of flakes every day or so feed the little tentacles sticking up out of the rocks and sand. probably don't need to, but it makes me feel better and it doesn't seem to be hurting anything.

the CUC is the next thing i plan to add and let it tackle the algae and other gunk in there. the hair algae is so long i can't tell what may be a worm and what may be algae.

since i'm planning to quarantine everything for...for...i don't know, maybe a month, i figure i can add things to the QT and they may be ready to go in about the time the CUC is finished.

as for keeping bacteria alive in this process. i figure the shrimp is still doing it's part. once that is gone, i read somewhere that you should feed your tank the expected maximum feeding you intend to have when your tank is stocked. so, whatever i plan on feeding my fish and corals when all is there. this seems quite logical to me as the garbage going in will be processed just without the processing of the fish. trouble is, i don't know anything about appetites yet, so this will be a bit of a guessing game for a while. but it will also be tweaked as i slowly add fish/corals, so the biological filters will also be tweaked.

see what i mean about rambling?

[+SChrisEV]

Maybe my understanding is wrong, but putting the food in is not the whole of it. You need something to eat the food an produce waste. That is that the bacteria feed on, not the food.... Or there is the bacteria in a bottle approach, but i don't know much about it. But even if you add the bacteria, you'll still want fish/inverts something to produce waste.

[Planeden]

i think the idea was that the food will also break down into waste (ammonia) naturally. the fish is just a pretty way to watch it happen . it may be faster, too. i have cycled tanks using shrimp pellets to get my ammonia up, and it worked. better than i expected, frankly.

regardless, i am planning on adding my CUC soon. i'm not going quarantine the CUC. hopefully friday if i can decide what i want by then. if my boss lets me off early after my upcoming 18-20 hour days.

[subsea]

Maybe my understanding is wrong, but putting the food in is not the whole of it. You need something to eat the food an produce waste. That is that the bacteria feed on, not the food.... Or there is the bacteria in a bottle approach, but i don't know much about it. But even if you add the bacteria, you'll still want fish/inverts something to produce waste.

Decomposing shrimp is food for bacteria. Patrick

[subsea]

I have some thoughts on detrivores in your mud filter. While I have purchased an exotic kit from Hawaii, I always recommend to acquire from local reefkeepers. My mud filter has mostly bristle worms. Macro filter is loaded with pods.

With respect to detrivores in your display tank substrate, again I would recommend bristle worms. For surface janitors, serpent and brittle stars are tops in my book. As I was vacuming substrate in Jaubert Plenumn, I noted mini stars. While they would not replace bristle worms in functionality, they display very uniquely. Several people have them in ARC.

La bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

[Planeden]

I have some thoughts on detrivores in your mud filter. While I have purchased an exotic kit from Hawaii, I always recommend to acquire from local reefkeepers. My mud filter has mostly bristle worms. Macro filter is loaded with pods.

With respect to detrivores in your display tank substrate, again I would recommend bristle worms. For surface janitors, serpent and brittle stars are tops in my book. As I was vacuming substrate in Jaubert Plenumn, I noted mini stars. While they would not replace bristle worms in functionality, they display very uniquely. Several people have them in ARC.

La bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

thanks Patrick.

I have gotten substrate from three different local sources, so i know that i have worms. I have not seen any of the little starts yet, but I would like some just for fun. I plan to go to aquadome shortly and get some janitors (i have mistakenly been calling these detrivores, oops). I plan to pick up their 30 gallon janitor pack that includes 12 red/blur hermits, 12 small snails, and 6 nassarius snails. since i have a bazillian nerite *cerith snails from you, i think i will try to focus their efforts on cerith nerite or margarita snails if Hunter is in an accommodating mood or a small tip will work. I am also going to pick up one of the "microfauna starter kits" which will get me more snails, works, limpets or pods, and the mini brittle stars. i would like to add a bristle start, or two, for looks if not cleaning. not the green serpent and not the sand sifting kind.

I'm pretty sure that will more or less conclude my cleaning needs. if i need a few more janitors (since i have a 40 gallon, not 30) i will add them as needed in small doses as needed to keep things clean.

*more than simply being accommodating, Hunter noticed the i didn't know exactly what i was talking about and pointed to several of the snails to figure out which ones i really had (i had cerith, not nerite). nice guy that Hunter. he took good care of me. an update will follow with my additions.

[Planeden]

Update: I got my light hung. AI Sol Super Blue

I think it will work out pretty well. I have a lot of chain left (just doubled over at the top) so i can lower it if i want to. Once i figure out the minimum height i would like, i will remove the extra chain. I also got s-hooks (not there yet) that that i can use to raise the lights in increments of 1 chain link. That way when i need to acclimate corals or anything i can do so without playing with the light settings.

i still need to figure out a nifty thing to do with the light power and controller cable. i have plenty of length on the controller that i can run it up to the hook and back down the wall. not so with the power cable. so, i may just add a little hook to the wall and move it back to the wall and let it drop down.

[JamesL]

Nice!

[esacjack]

rockin gold chains!