First Time Build

[Planeden]

It probably looks that way but have you put it in the tank yet?

Sorta. I marked a 15" by 35" rectangle on the cardboard I'm using o play with it. I built a nice rock wall out of it, but I don't want a rock wall.

On good notes, I really like the brs reef saver rock. It looks nice, is really pitted and porous, and stacks together really really well.

I'm also glad I bought two powerheads.

[+KimP]

I think that rock is great too. Good idea paying around with it outside of the tank first.

[Planeden]

I think that rock is great too. Good idea paying around with it outside of the tank first.

Need any?

[Planeden]

BRS AC reactor question, today.

In a refugium thread the other day capt obvious mentioned that water should move more slowly through the fuge. For that particular setup he recommended having a Tee on the overflow to regulate water into the fuge and skimmer sections. Since I don't have that option with my sump, I was thinking of pumping the water out of the overflow side, through the reactor, and in on the return side. So, just have that water bypass the fuge. Does that seem like a good idea, assuming I can maintain a good amount of flow through both with the pumps I have?

[Planeden]

Very exciting (for me). I drained the tank of its test water and added my rock. It is all (except maybe one little rubble piece) BRS Reef Saver rock and I am quite pleased with how the rock looks and how it stacks. So far it is pretty stable with no glue but I may end up glueing the top of the right formation together where the cave is formed. I do have just enough room to get the gravel vac between the rocks and glass.

I am putting all the rocks on the glass and filling the sand up around it. I bought a bunch of rubble to try to build a sort of levee that would let me have 3" of sand in the right/back half of the tank and 1" of sand in the left/front side. Kinda diagonal, if that makes sense. I want to have at least one burrowing fish that will appreciate the depth, but didn't like the idea of 25% of the front glass being sand. But alas, the rubble is a lot bigger than I thought, and the tank seems a lot smaller than i thought, and there is simply no way to use the rubble that way.

I may still try to build a levee by cutting thinner strips. More likely, I will add some small piles of broken rubble in a few areas to try to please the burrowers. And then I will just try to slope the sand au naturale from 3" to 1" and see how it does.

Also exciting, I learned last night that the original magic erasers are reef safe. man that makes glass easy to clean.

Any comments or concerns are greatly appreciated.

[+KimP]

Magic erasers have been one of my favorite discoveries I'm super excited to see you moving forward with this build! When are you adding the sand? Just bust up the rubble with a hammer if it's too big.

[+brian.srock]

Never heard of using a magic eraser in the tank. I used a chisel and hammer to get the rock the exact way I wanted but looks like you got it right. I would cement it that way. There were way too many times when I put my hand in my tank to do something and accidently toppled a rock.

[Planeden]

Magic erasers have been one of my favorite discoveries I'm super excited to see you moving forward with this build! When are you adding the sand? Just bust up the rubble with a hammer if it's too big.

Don't tell Brian, but since the rock is so dead, I am going to start the rock in the tank and not in a trash can. I think I'm going to let it run a few days and then I am going to test for phosphates to see if anything major is leaching out. I have heard that it can leach into the sand and be hard to get rid of. Or, I may drop one of the extra pieces in a jar while I'm gone to test it when I get back. Anyway, if leaching is not a problem I will add my sand, mud, and a shrimp and get going.

In addition to the size of the rock rubble, there is also just the shortened span because of the overflow. Maybe if I get something like a garden edging so i can put nice flowing curves in it and glue the rock to it, or mold the shape of the wall with it. I will play more with that when I get back.

Never heard of using a magic eraser in the tank. I used a chisel and hammer to get the rock the exact way I wanted but looks like you got it right. I would cement it that way. There were way too many times when I put my hand in my tank to do something and accidently toppled a rock.

Hope you didn't read the response to Kim about ignoring your advice above . Maybe I should just glue the whole thing. It seems really stable now. I don't think I can knock the top off the bottom rocks if I tried. But I guess it could get less stable because of buoyancy.

In a lost post (server errors) Capt. Obvious suggested putting the rock on egg crate rather than directly on the glass. That sounds like a good idea, too. So I will probably do that. Either that, or I have a bunch of lexan in the garage if I am just trying to protect the glass as opposed to getting some sort of flow under the rock.

[+brian.srock]

Guess you should of prefaced your post with Brian don't read this first part but it's too late. I read it.

With BRS rock you should be ok. I can check with Bio but we had a container of hydraulic cement that we used that would make securing everything easy as well as your rock sand wall stable.

Shouldn't have any issues with buoyancy but when I flail around in my tank trying to place frags with a clown pecking my fingers things tended to get bumped.

I currently use egg crate on my rocks if your going with sand than that's the way to go. If you decided on going BB then pieces of lexan cut to where you couldn't see it would be more aesthetically pleasing.

[Planeden]

Guess you should of prefaced your post with Brian don't read this first part but it's too late. I read it.

With BRS rock you should be ok. I can check with Bio but we had a container of hydraulic cement that we used that would make securing everything easy as well as your rock sand wall stable.

Shouldn't have any issues with buoyancy but when I flail around in my tank trying to place frags with a clown pecking my fingers things tended to get bumped.

I currently use egg crate on my rocks if your going with sand than that's the way to go. If you decided on going BB then pieces of lexan cut to where you couldn't see it would be more aesthetically pleasing.

yeah, i wasn't to sneaky with that. but, i really didn't think you'd turn into yosimite sam so i wasn't too worried about it.

thanks for the tip on the glue. i have seen lots of people talking about it on here, so hopefully i can find some or just buy a small tube.

no bare bottom for me...wait, that sounds strange...anyway, i will get some egg crate. thanks

[Planeden]

I'm sure this has been a nice respite for you guys, but it's time for another open question if i may.

What kind of salt should i get? I would like to buy it at the dome so i can get my rocks wet this week.

Also, I may be looking to hire someone to come help set up my flow. All of the sources seem vague and contradictory and I'm pretty frustrated trying to figure out what I should be trying to do other than blowing water around the tank.

Thanks everyone. Hope you guys are having a good holiday weekend.

[victoly]

I've got two salt suggestions, seachem salinity and Red Sea coral pro. I recently switched to rscp and my corals have never looked happier.

[+KimP]

I've been using rscp for a long time and have been happy with it. There are several salt discussions if you search the forum. I wouldn't worry too much about flow, there's no trick you just want water moving around the tank with no dead spots. Do you have 2 powerheads?

[subsea]

I looked at the material list. Is 1 lb of miracle mud the extent of your mud filter? I do not think high flow is much of an issue thru refugium. From an energy conservation point of view, in tank circulation is more efficient then a 4' head loss to get from sump to display tank. I would not run a separate bypass pump in sump just to slow flow down thru a section of your sump. No one has proved that low flow rates thru refugiums are more efficient, IMO.

Patrick

[+KimP]

I looked at the material list. Is 1 lb of miracle mud the extent of your mud filter? I do not think high flow is much of an issue thru refugium. From an energy conservation point of view, in tank circulation is more efficient then a 4' head loss to get from sump to display tank. I would not run a separate bypass pump in sump just to slow flow down thru a section of your sump. No one has proved that low flow rates thru refugiums are more efficient, IMO.

Patrick

Very interesting! I've always heard to have low flow but wondered about cyano problems, etc.

[subsea]

I'm sure this has been a nice respite for you guys, but it's time for another open question if i may. What kind of salt should i get? I would like to buy it at the dome so i can get my rocks wet this week. Also, I may be looking to hire someone to come help set up my flow. All of the sources seem vague and contradictory and I'm pretty frustrated trying to figure out what I should be trying to do other than blowing water around the tank. Thanks everyone. Hope you guys are having a good holiday weekend.

When I contracted my services as a senior subsea engineer, my day rate was $1500. How much time do you want to buy?

Dennis, if you take care of my transportation, I would be happy to help with your system circulation. Patrick

[ckyuv]

I never noticed your build thread before so let me start with this. It looks like you need a yellow porites! I would also love to help you with your flow and ill beat Patrick price by 250 so you will only have to pay me 1250 I'm just not a senior or an engineer

Cool build thread ill be tagging along!

[ChaosFyre]

Consider this link as a source of natural reef keeping info. He starts at the bottom of the food chain with the bacteria.

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/cleanupcrew.html

Thank you very much for the link. Between this and the other two in jmvannas's thread it seems my evening plans may have changed.

Also, for the anti-skimming crowd, it is my understanding that going skimmerless is usually considered more of an expert thing. That novices can likely save themselves a lot of trouble by using a skimmer. But, will a skimmer be in conflict with the natural reef environment by taking nutrients away from what an extreme cleanup crew would eat? I mean, that clearly makes sense, but at the same time, it seems like you would really have time the additions of the clean up crew to avoid chemistry issues.

I should have probably read the provided links before posing this question. So feel free to just tell me to read if that is the case.

Will a skimmer be in conflict with natural reef keeping techniques? It depends on what you want in your system. Instead of target feeding filter feeders, I run high nutrient systems. I have much biodiversity in this tank, including numerous feather dusters, sponges, tunicates, Sea Apples and Flame Scallops. Most of the filter feeders I keep may be considered advanced. However, the method is simple to operate. It is economical and very low maintenance.

How do you keep high nutrient systems? I'd rather have filter feeders clean my water than a protein skimmer. Who can use a system like this?

[ChaosFyre]

Guess you should of prefaced your post with Brian don't read this first part but it's too late. I read it.

With BRS rock you should be ok. I can check with Bio but we had a container of hydraulic cement that we used that would make securing everything easy as well as your rock sand wall stable.

Shouldn't have any issues with buoyancy but when I flail around in my tank trying to place frags with a clown pecking my fingers things tended to get bumped.

I currently use egg crate on my rocks if your going with sand than that's the way to go. If you decided on going BB then pieces of lexan cut to where you couldn't see it would be more aesthetically pleasing.

yeah, i wasn't to sneaky with that. but, i really didn't think you'd turn into yosimite sam so i wasn't too worried about it.

thanks for the tip on the glue. i have seen lots of people talking about it on here, so hopefully i can find some or just buy a small tube.

no bare bottom for me...wait, that sounds strange...anyway, i will get some egg crate. thanks

I use gel super glue. You can buy it at any HEB. It hardens fast when it touches the water so you have to be a bit quick if you want to glue something while its underwater. Usually I just take out the coral, dab dry a spot on a rock, put a bit of glue where I want the frag, press it down, then put it in the tank again. Once or twice I've had to glue under water.

Also some corals shed too quickly for the glue to work. You can put these in a shot glass with some gravel at the bottom. Make sure it doesn't get blown out of the shotglass by the flow, and make sure the stalk of the coral is down in the gravel. It will attach itself to a piece of gravel within a day or two. Take it out and glue the piece of gravel down to a fragment and voila!

I had to do this with my xenia and kenya tree, and a polyp or two when I ran out of glue.

[subsea]

Chaos,

Between bacteria, filter feeders, macros, corals and fish, it is a matter of multiple nutrient pathways and complex food webs. It is a "question of balance" of nutrient recycling. With enough biodiversity, the system produces food and the inhabitants eat the food and grow.

Large bacteria populations in sandbed can double every 20 minutes. With a large population of fish to produce waste, ammonia and nitrate are processed most efficiently by bacteria in the sandbed. Sandbed maintenance will be critical with the large fish load in your tank. I aggressively stir up detritus to feed tank inhabitants including filter feeders like feather dusters and sea apples. Macroalgae will uptake ammonia, nitrite and nitrate simultaneously. Macroalgae will also uptake inorganic phosphate as well as any heavy metals in solution, including iron. Feed your macro to your tangs for nutrient recycling. Prune and remove your macro for nutrient export. I compost my tomatoes with it.

La bonne tems roulee,

Patrick

[Planeden]

I've been using rscp for a long time and have been happy with it. There are several salt discussions if you search the forum. I wouldn't worry too much about flow, there's no trick you just want water moving around the tank with no dead spots. Do you have 2 powerheads?

I'm having trouble with multiquote, so bear with me.

Thanks victoly and Kim for the suggestions. Sorry, I'm out of my routine and didn't think about looking in old threads.

Yes, I have two powerheads. They are variable between 400 gph and a whole lot more gph. So, i think I will be able to get "enough". I'm probably just trying to be too technical about it. But when every source effectively says "no laminar flow, nice and turbulent is what you want. Oh, and those nice waves rolling back and fourth are awesome". So, unless hydrodynamics is significantly different than aerodynamics, waves that are not breaking are nice laminar flow. And don't get me started about desired flow rates listed in feet per second and pumps rated in gph.

[Planeden]

I looked at the material list. Is 1 lb of miracle mud the extent of your mud filter? I do not think high flow is much of an issue thru refugium. From an energy conservation point of view, in tank circulation is more efficient then a 4' head loss to get from sump to display tank. I would not run a separate bypass pump in sump just to slow flow down thru a section of your sump. No one has proved that low flow rates thru refugiums are more efficient, IMO.Patrick

No sir, 1 gallon of mud. I may have written it wrong, but 1 gallon will get me 2" in my fuge. So, I will probably just use 1/2 gallon for 1" depth. Thanks or he info on the flow. The more I thought about it the more complicated and dangerous it sounded. It would significantly reduce he volume of filtered water. Any slow down in low would have to be significantly more efficient to make up for it.

Good to know that no evidence supports the complicated process.

[Planeden]

Subsea and ck...very generous offer, but at those rates can we do it in five minutes? Anyway, I had a moment of frustrated weakness. I will at least play with it a bit before I call in an expert. I think I have time before it becomes too important and I may have an opportunity to see a few more tanks before then. Which will also help.

[Planeden]

Consider this link as a source of natural reef keeping info. He starts at the bottom of the food chain with the bacteria. http://www.chucksaddiction.com/cleanupcrew.html

Thank you very much for the link. Between this and the other two in jmvannas's thread it seems my evening plans may have changed.Also, for the anti-skimming crowd, it is my understanding that going skimmerless is usually considered more of an expert thing. That novices can likely save themselves a lot of trouble by using a skimmer. But, will a skimmer be in conflict with the natural reef environment by taking nutrients away from what an extreme cleanup crew would eat? I mean, that clearly makes sense, but at the same time, it seems like you would really have time the additions of the clean up crew to avoid chemistry issues.I should have probably read the provided links before posing this question. So feel free to just tell me to read if that is the case.

Will a skimmer be in conflict with natural reef keeping techniques? It depends on what you want in your system. Instead of target feeding filter feeders, I run high nutrient systems. I have much biodiversity in this tank, including numerous feather dusters, sponges, tunicates, Sea Apples and Flame Scallops. Most of the filter feeders I keep may be considered advanced. However, the method is simple to operate. It is economical and very low maintenance.

How do you keep high nutrient systems? I'd rather have filter feeders clean my water than a protein skimmer. Who can use a system like this?

Heh, well I'm hoping I can. I'm glad subsea jumped in and answered because I would have "dunno, first time. So, mud, sand, macro, no skimmer and ask subsea, timfish, et al if I have trouble.

By the by, if I missed anyone in my replies, as always, thanks. Oh, right, ironically, thanks for the glue tip chaos. Ok,and thanks to anyone else. Cabin door is closing. If all goes as planed I'm back in Austin in a few hours. Then the fun begins!

[Planeden]

I think there is no phosphate leaching out of my BRS reef saver rock. I placed a couple of pieces in some fresh water with an air stone for 10 days. Before and after phosphates tested 0. So, unless there s a problem with my methods, it doesn't look like leaching will be a problem.