Learning from mistakes

[FarmerTy]

One drop of stray water could possibly reintroduce Ich into your system. It's not worth the risk to me, but may be worth the experiment if you're inclined.

That's all I've been preaching the last 3-4 years. But since I'm closing the borders and nothing will come in without at least a month in QT (corals and fish), then it's worth it to me now to do this if needed. Hopefully I don't need to though, it's going to be a pain in the rear.

[Gig 'em @ NDstructible]

Well then make sure you keep your QT plenty far from the display tank and autoclave anything that touches the water of the QT tank afterwards.

[FarmerTy]

I'm sure I'll have QT-specific tools down the road but I haven't quite gotten that far in planning yet.

I'd like to setup the QT in the office so that should keep it sufficiently far enough away to prevent any airborne transmissions.

[Gig 'em @ NDstructible]

Jeez. I sure hope ich doesn't have an airborne phase. It's like super plague

[Reburn]

Yall know ich can go airborne for 10 feet.

At least that's what they say.

[FarmerTy]

Yall know ich can go airborne for 10 feet.

At least that's what they say.

That's about 2' short of what Reburn could toss me.

[Reburn]

You bring spring rolls and corals.

Your safe

[Jynxgirl]

I had a blue hippo that would ich up every spring for years. I had no outbreaks for ten or so months, then march would roll around and ich.

They say you can have an ich free display... but I think fish have ich on them just like we have staph on us at all times. It just is a problem when someone is stressed/sick/mold count... (maybe my doris had allergies)

[Isaac]

ich, you have staph! gross.

[Bpb]

Biggest mistakes of mine have been playing the lighting carousel (changing light methods way too often, gone from T5HO, to MH, to MH/LED, to LED inside of 1.5 years). I wish I had just kept using what worked and what I liked instead of experimenting and spending alot of money chasing something which I couldnt really even explain to begin with. I wish I had just saved my coin and upgraded my T5HO fixture when I changed tanks and stocked up on bulbs rather than keep changing light platform to try and fix something that wasnt even a problem.

Secondly, not using a quarantine tank, for coral in particular. I'm still a victim of that mistake as I still haven't set one up yet. I played russian roulette for a long time but ultimately paid the price and lost ALOT of corals and went through a year of head scratching and heartache trying to figure out what was going on before I discovered pests which could have easily been caught if I had been doing a routine 6 week quarantine and dipping regiment on all incoming corals. Instead I trusted who I got them from and often times went straight into the tank. If you're going to dabble in corals, realize that on a long enough timeline, if you don't quarantine, something will make it in, and wipe out your tank. Or at the very least claim several pieces and cause you alot of headache trying to cure an infestation in-tank without a quarantine.

[Timfish]

Yeah, I don't know about that! I have coral colonies laying everywhere in my tank right now and I'm about a month or so away from wanting to remove all my fish and going fishless if my powder blue never kicks ich.

There's always something to fight! Haha.

I had a blue hippo that would ich up every spring for years. I had no outbreaks for ten or so months, then march would roll around and ich.

They say you can have an ich free display... but I think fish have ich on them just like we have staph on us at all times. It just is a problem when someone is stressed/sick/mold count... (maybe my doris had allergies)

Jumping in on this "Ich" portion of this thread I for one believe reef systems can be "ich" free and UV sterilizers if properly used can erradicate it from a system. Having repeatedly introduced butterfies and Acanthurus species tangs to reef systems that lost fish to "ick" and no symptoms developed for me is undeniable proof. That the only treatment was a UV sterilizer also also demonstrates to me their efficacy when properly used.

We aquarists over the years have almost certainly selectively chosen "ich" variants that are less virulent but more tenacious. When I started keeping saltwater (only a few years ago ) it was very typical an "ick" outbreak meant all the fish in a system died within days of the first symptoms showing. (Sprung is on record as advising no one ever get any Acanathurus spp. tangs because of their inevitable demise to "ich".) Now we're often just talking about losing a few sensitive fish or having recurring outbreaks that only affect one or two or a few specimens but with no subsequent death.

As far as deciding on when to go fishless it's certainly up to the individual aquarist. If one or two fish are showing symptoms but long term it's been 6 or 8 weeks and no others have shown any symptoms and the affected fish are eating well I would be very reluctant to stress my animals if the combination of equipment, corals feeding and inherent or developed resistance is keeping the parasites at bay. This may seem callous but to be blunt, considering what I've learned about the importance of ammonium and uric acid excreted by fish are to meeting the nitrogen needs of corals I would choose letting one or two fish die to disrupting the ecosystem by going fishless and screwing with the feeding processes of the corals.

[Sascha D.]

Solid advice Bpb. I've never had the realestate to qt corals. Dipping is an absolute must and it'll catch the pests before that can cause a mess.

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[Good Greef]

I decided over a year ago against QT-ing Fish and leaving tanks fallow for ICH, for my own selfish reasons. Reading so much on the topic, its crazy the OCD lengths one has to go the ensure "100% positively" that ich is eradicated from their system. Even then, you read stories of ICH reoccurence often times because the hobbiest feels maybe a "drop of water from the LFS" was introduced by accident through a net.

I dont know which side of the debate is right whether scientificaly or anecdotally, but I'd love to suggest an experiment to settle this ich debate once and for all.

Once someone followed the proclaimed protocol for a fully ich free display tank(Perhaps Ty can volunteer for the sake of science lol), I propose they buy a few fish that maybe would push the limits for stress (i.e. 2 powder blues in a 75g) in their display tank So, using you as an example Ty, what if you bought a few powder blues and Quarantined them for 6-8 weeks or whatever length yall suggest to ensure both fishes are ich free. Then, introduce these "ich-free" fish into the "ich-free display tank." What would happen then?

I wonder if anyone has done this simple test? If you properly qt powder blue tang and put it in a properly qted 3 foot long display, will ich still surface when the tang gets stressed ?

Perhaps theres flaw in my premise or thought process, bt id love to hear your thoughts.

[Sascha D.]

I'm almost positive that I've seen someone on this forum do this before. Coincidentally, I'm starting a new tank and will be attempting an Ich-free display. I'm starting the tank from scratch, with dry rock and dry sand, so it would be several months before I add any fish. I'm confident that starting a parasite free display is fairly simple, but keeping it that way is another story.

The question is, does Beyer or any coral dip kill Ich? If not, then every new frag that goes into the tank will have to be quarantined and treated for Ich before going into the tank. As I understand it, soft corals cannot be dipped even if those coral dips did kill Ich. It will likely be a considerable challenge to keep an Ich-free display without a UV sterilizer as Tim mentioned above. UV can be pretty expensive to maintain for a long period of time. A QT system would be much easier and more cost efficient to maintain than the display itself.

[FarmerTy]

We do have a running example of an ich-free tank, Nuxx has one. I got to see it myself the other day. He even did a stress test with catching a yellow belly hippo out of the display and neither the hippo, his black tang, or any of his other fish showed any spots during this time when he was running around like a mad man with a net, moving his entire rock scape to catch the hippo.

He said the hippo looked like it was going to have a heart attack when he finally caught it. Hippos are highly susceptible to ich but not as much as powder blues or achilles, but enough so that I would assume a stressful event like that would cause it to surface on the hippo.

Ich-free isn't an illusion or a false hope, it can scientifically be done. We know the life cycle of the parasite and know the QT methods to keep it from entering the system. Everything HAS to be QT'ed outside of the DT and observed and treated if necessary prior to introduction into the DT. I personally would not have taken this step to remove ich from my system if it were not for three things:

1) I am done stocking and have almost all the corals and fish I want for my system

2) I want to keep a powder blue or achilles tang

3) I plan to QT everything in a separate tank prior to introduction into my tank from this point on.

Here's my thoughts as I have now been on both sides off the discussion for keeping an ich-free tank or doing ich-maintenance. If I was to keep a tank without a powder blue, powder brown, or achilles tang, I would just run an ich-maintenance tank like I've done since I've kept reef tanks. (I've done this for 12 years without fail, until I added a powder blue! Then it didn't work anymore.) I would know ich is in my system but barring stressful events, they would never be overwhelmed with ich. They would get a spot from time to time but nothing would ever overtake them and kill them. Perfect example of this is Juiceman's tank. He has a myriad of tangs, including an achilles and black tang, that will get spots from time to time but never overwhelms the fish population in his tank. He does not run UV.

I have not seen any info on dips killing ich in any form but I would imagine they do have some effect on the non-encysted form of ich. But if I had a truly ich-free system, I would not chance it with a dip. QT is the only way. Speaking of dips, they are not surefire in any sense. I dipped everything going into my old 125-gallon and I got bryopsis, red bugs, and AEFW in that tank over the years. Sure, it helps minimize potential threats but I would focus on the word minimize, not assume it fully eradicates the chances. Think not 100%, but maybe more 90% chance you didn't let something in, which is useful in its own right, just not 100%. [emoji6]

Regarding UV, most know I have a giant 57-watt UV on my tank and it was running during this time the tank broke out in ich. I have no doubt it was effective to a certain degree and probably saved my whole fish population from an awful demise but it was not effective enough to overcome a powder blue and it's ridiculous inability to resist ich. Bear in mind that this powder blue lived in my sump for 3 months in my sump without a spot of ich on him, it was only when I put him in my DT with the rest of the fish is when all this started happening. I could see a scenario where I was more lightly stocked that this wouldn't have happened, either less fish total or less volume of fish (smaller fish).

Anyways, that's my two cents from my own experience on the matter. Hope it was entertaining for someone to read.

[emoji4]

[Good Greef]

Thanks for the replies and sorry for sending this thread on a tangent. Id love to see what would happen in Nuxx's tank (or anyone with an ich free display) over a longer stress test, not just a net chase. But since his tank seems huge, maybe a smaller tank would be better for this experiment. Like a powder blue in a 20g. (I know, I know, not humane but you get the gist of my experiment).

Back to the topic of the OP, my biggest mistake is not running GFO for the first 6 months and not aquascaping initially for optimal flow. Also, adding a springeri damsel(supposedly the tamer species) even after I held off on damsels for a year. It literally nipped and/or caused the deaths of a royal gramma, mandarin, firefish, and I had to take all my rock out to catch it causing other fish to die from stress.

[Good Greef]

Thanks for the replies and sorry for sending this thread on a tangent. Id love to see what would happen in Nuxx's tank (or anyone with an ich free display) over a longer stress test, not just a net chase. But since his tank seems huge, maybe a smaller tank would be better for this experiment. Like a powder blue in a 20g. (I know, I know, not humane but you get the gist of my experiment).

Back to the topic of the OP, my biggest mistake is not running GFO for the first 6 months and not aquascaping initially for optimal flow. Also, adding a springeri damsel(supposedly the tamer species) even after I held off on damsels for a year. It literally nipped and/or caused the deaths of a royal gramma, mandarin, firefish, and I had to take all my rock out to catch it causing other fish to die from stress.

[Bpb]

I can say in my 4 years in the hobby now, and going through one tank change, I've never seen a single ich spot on any fish in the tank. Granted I don't have any of the big ich magnet fish though

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[FarmerTy]

I honestly don't think ich is as prevalent as we all think. Just my personal opinion. It's the concentrating of the fish from multiple sources at a LFS or wholesaler that really amplifies the incidence of the parasite.

Good Greef, you just mentioned you'd like a better test than just a net chase but then you said you lost fish to the exact same scenario. I'd say catching a fish with a net and destroying the rockwork is pretty stressful then, am I right? I'm totally razzing you by the way. [emoji12]

[Good Greef]

Haha. I knew that was coming. What I didnt take time to further explain, is that the ich spots didnt show up for 2-3 days after that chase date. And it (yellow tang) didnt die till 20 days later.

I agree with you Ty though , that it isnt as prevalent as ppl think. Happens most when ppl get started off in the hobby obviously and are impatient or hell bent on a certain fish.

[FarmerTy]

Haha, that's what I was hired to do... Sass people... Actually, I don't think I was ever hired but...

Well I have Nuxx's hippo tang now so I'll tell you if I ever see any spots. If you want, I can tie a fake shark to his tail and have it constantly chase him around the tank if you want to induce some stress. [emoji12]

[Good Greef]

Sounds perfect. Ill also bring over 2 more powder blues to add.

[FarmerTy]

Sounds perfect. Ill also bring over 2 more powder blues to add.

Free powder blues! My favorite!!!

[cliff]

You guys are awesome! I am slowly getting more confident in starting my tank. I have everything just have not added the water because I have not felt that I know enough about this hobby, To think...2 months ago when I started tank hunting, I figured. add some rock, some fish and a cheap Walmart filter and ill be good. Just like my fresh water tank only saltier...WRONG! Im so thankful for this site. I have learned so much in the past few weeks. I now have my sump, my tank, my washed sand, scrubbed dry rock, QT...ETC. And after reading this forum, my amazon cart is full. Refractometer, calibrating liquid and all the testing stuff I could find... As far as the research and patients... I have no problem with that. I have spent the last 2 hours watching Youtube videos on tank disasters...Im going about this the right way and taking my time. Keep it up guys and gals!!

[+BobcatReefer]

If your RODI system isn't automated, don't take meds and drink wine to deal w/ a jacked up back while making water. Very good chance you'll wake up to a big mess.