To BB or not to BB. That is the question.

[ct67stang]

So ive been debating whether to go sandless with my new dt. All my systems in the past have had sand and it seems to be where all of the nasty smelly crud builds up. Ive been doing alot of research and seen some of the pros and cons of having and NOT having sand in your dt. I know some members have done bare bottom and was hoping to get their personal input. And would also like to hear from anyone that thinks bare bottom is not the way to go. Heres SOME of what ive learned so far.

Cons:

-You lose a major source of filtration

-will lose alot of biodiversity i.e places for pods, bristle worms, medusa worms and other beneficial critters to live in.

-learned that not using argonite loses the ability for my system to self buffer itself ph and alk wise.

-limits some of the livestock i can add to my system (goby/pistol shrimp, dragonettes, etc)

Pros

- not having to worry about vacuuming the sand (ive pulled alot of nasty stuff out of the sand)

- reduces the chance for phosphate build up

-i feel it will help by not having another place for parasites like brown jelly and ick to sit dormant and cause havok on my poor Lps.

I can add more but id like for your input first and elaborate from there.

The main reason that started the idea of bare bottom is because almost a year ago and then more recently, i lost several big colonies of lps from a pretty much all lps dt. It was so hard to see my colonies be taken out one head at a time by brown jelly desease. How do i know sand was the culprit? I bought a huge mated pair of maroon clowns. Almost as soon as they went in the dt they went to fanning the sand, causing all the sand, detritus and who knows what else up into the water column. There were times where it was so bad that chalices on the opposite side from where the clowns were "nesting" were getting buried. My lps were thriving with not one issue. I have will always have an euphelia heavy tank because i love the look they give a tank. They give the tank lots of movement. I dont want to go through what i went through again and i know a bb will not make brown jelly a non issue but i feel it drastically lower my chances of it happening again.

Hope im not rambling.

I thank you for sharing your input and knowledge in advance.

[jestep]

I did it, and I definitely don't like it. i found it much harder to keep clean, or at least clean looking, than a sandbed. There's always some dead spot that detritus and debris accumulate. After the tank has been going a while, there's constantly film or coralline algae growing on it, which really doesn't look good IMO. I'm sticking with shallow 1 - 2" sandbeds with special grade or equivalent size sand.

[subsea]

You have described the pros and cons well.

What will replace the biofiltration lost with removal of substrate?

When you claimed that your sandbed was the culprit, you must explain the process better.

I say that you mismanaged your sandbed and it turned into a septic tank. I have the same nutrients in my 12 year old 6" deep bed of CaribSea Florida Florida Crushed Coral. With a grain size 2mm-5mm, it is the perfect nutrient sink which you described in your tank. As I seek high nutrient conditions for macro lagoon with abundant filter feeders I work my sandbed to process those nutrients. As the nutrients feed diverse nutrient pathways, they in term produce food in the form of bacteria. They also produce larvae from diverse detrivores which process nutrients in the upper reaches of the sandbed. While I do feed my tank, my sand bed feeds my tank.

If you want your bare bottom system to work properly, achieve balance with nutrient export and nutrient recycling. Nutrient recycling is whatever we grow in our tanks. If you managed your system dynamics, then the biomass which represents nutrient recycling, will be gorgeous LPS colonies and not brown jelly or green hair or burgundy cynobacteria.

Patrick

[ct67stang]

I did it, and I definitely don't like it. i found it much harder to keep clean, or at least clean looking, than a sandbed. There's always some dead spot that detritus and debris accumulate. After the tank has been going a while, there's constantly film or coralline algae growing on it, which really doesn't look good IMO. I'm sticking with shallow 1 - 2" sandbeds with special grade or equivalent size sand.

im seeing all these issues right now, the detritus piles, and the ugly look of seeing the bottom glass . Which gave me a couple ideas/solutions;

I love aquascaping. I feel its almost like art. Creating a scene. So with that in mind , an idea occurred to me. Wouldn't it look cool to fill the whole floor with rock!? Like if you're in the middle of a reef not at the edge of one which is what the look of adding sand does imo. That would fill the floor so i cant see the glass. As for the detritus buildup. I thought of building a spray bar that would sit on the bottom back of the tank always pushing anything that would want to settle back out to the water column and then out to the overflow..... thoughts?

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[ct67stang]

You have described the pros and cons well.

What will replace the biofiltration lost with removal of substrate?

When you claimed that your sandbed was the culprit, you must explain the process better.

I say that you mismanaged your sandbed and it turned into a septic tank. I have the same nutrients in my 12 year old 6" deep bed of CaribSea Florida Florida Crushed Coral. With a grain size 2mm-5mm, it is the perfect nutrient sink which you described in your tank. As I seek high nutrient conditions for macro lagoon with abundant filter feeders I work my sandbed to process those nutrients. As the nutrients feed diverse nutrient pathways, they in term produce food in the form of bacteria. They also produce larvae from diverse detrivores which process nutrients in the upper reaches of the sandbed. While I do feed my tank, my sand bed feeds my tank.

If you want your bare bottom system to work properly, achieve balance with nutrient export and nutrient recycling. Nutrient recycling is whatever we grow in our tanks. If you managed your system dynamics, then the biomass which represents nutrient recycling, will be gorgeous LPS colonies and not brown jelly or green hair or burgundy cynobacteria.

Patrick

yes patrick i will admit that in the begining i did not clean my sandbed. That combined with heavy feeding led to my sand bed being a land mine triggered by the clowns. Thats why im on the fence on this. I love bio diversity. And do love the look af a sand bed. Thats why i posted this to help me see all that i would gain/lose going in either direction.

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[subsea]

You have described the pros and cons well.

What will replace the biofiltration lost with removal of substrate?

When you claimed that your sandbed was the culprit, you must explain the process better.

I say that you mismanaged your sandbed and it turned into a septic tank. I have the same nutrients in my 12 year old 6" deep bed of CaribSea Florida Florida Crushed Coral. With a grain size 2mm-5mm, it is the perfect nutrient sink which you described in your tank. As I seek high nutrient conditions for macro lagoon with abundant filter feeders I work my sandbed to process those nutrients. As the nutrients feed diverse nutrient pathways, they in term produce food in the form of bacteria. They also produce larvae from diverse detrivores which process nutrients in the upper reaches of the sandbed. While I do feed my tank, my sand bed feeds my tank.

If you want your bare bottom system to work properly, achieve balance with nutrient export and nutrient recycling. Nutrient recycling is whatever we grow in our tanks. If you managed your system dynamics, then the biomass which represents nutrient recycling, will be gorgeous LPS colonies and not brown jelly or green hair or burgundy cynobacteria.

Patrick

yes patrick i will admit that in the begining i did not clean my sandbed. That combined with heavy feeding led to my sand bed being a land mine triggered by the clowns. Thats why im on the fence on this. I love bio diversity. And do love the look af a sand bed. Thats why i posted this to help me see all that i would gain/lose going in either direction.

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Setting up mature sandbeds not only requires the right janitors, but it requires introducing the different janitors in the correct sequence and at the right time. If you observe the indicators in your eco system, they will guide you as to "the right time".

Patrick

[subsea]

Sandbeds can be used in many ways.

I will describe the function and the purpose of remote deep sand bed (RDSB). It will process ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with amazingly fast growing bacteria. In one of the archives at Marine Depot, my friend, Anthony Calfo describes how he reduced nitrates at a large LFS that handled in excess of 2500 gallons of hi end fish. A standard 55G tank was used and filled with 12" of arroggonite. The RDSB was plumbed with unfilterd water entering on the right side and flowing across the sandbed. Bulkhead connection levels were paced so water level was less than 1" above sand bed surface. With 1000 GPH flow rate, the velocity of water stream does not allow detritus to settle out. As water leaves the RDSB, a sock filter catches solid detritus for nutrient export. Nitrate was reduced from 150ppm to less than 30ppm in one week and were sequentially maintained at less than 20ppm of nitrate.

The model which I described will work on a reef tank, predator tank and a fish tank. It simplifies the process of separating nutrient processes. Nitrogen is dealt with using bacteria in a complete nitrogen cycle which includes nutrient export by respiration of faculative bacteria with nitrogen being released as a free gas molecule. The speed of the water separates nitrogen fixation from phosphate export using filter sock to physically remove detritus.

Laissez la bonne toms roulee,

Patrick

[subsea]

For people that do not like bacteria as the solution to pollution, then you could adapt the motto of the EPA:

Dilution is the Solution to Pollution.

I say, give peace a chance.

Patrick

[Planeden]

im seeing all these issues right now, the detritus piles, and the ugly look of seeing the bottom glass . Which gave me a couple ideas/solutions;

I love aquascaping. I feel its almost like art. Creating a scene. So with that in mind , an idea occurred to me. Wouldn't it look cool to fill the whole floor with rock!? Like if you're in the middle of a reef not at the edge of one which is what the look of adding sand does imo. That would fill the floor so i cant see the glass. As for the detritus buildup. I thought of building a spray bar that would sit on the bottom back of the tank always pushing anything that would want to settle back out to the water column and then out to the overflow..... thoughts?

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i don't know how you could every get the detrius out of it if you had a floor of rock. i am not sure a spray bar would work. we end up with dead spots in our tanks on top of a fairly open bottom. getting enough flow at the right locations to prevent it under a big pile of rock seems troublesome. perhaps if you were to build a grate under it (like an undergravel filter) and then put a spray bar under it it could work.

i read that some people worry that fish are more stressed with a BB tank. i'm not a fish whisperer or anything, so i don't claim to know if it is true.

dennis

[Planeden]

For people that do not like bacteria as the solution to pollution, then you could adapt the motto of the EPA:

Dilution is the Solution to Pollution.

I say, give peace a chance.

Patrick

peace? all that carnage of bacteria attempting genocide on those innocent little nitrate molecules? hardly peaceful. gives me the heeby jeebies just thinking about it. i think the only reason i can handle it at all is the desensitization i have gotten watching all those ultra violent clorox and lysol commercials.

[Juiceman]

I think BB doesn't look good personally. But that's me. I will always have a small amount of substrate.

I will probably use the larger grain Aragonite sand from now on instead of Crushed Coral. I don't like how it looks anymore.

I'm speaking only for aesthetics.

I definitely don't like deep sand beds and live sand, that's for sure! Gross!

[victoly]

The only benefit to BB is if you want to run ULNS for a SPS heavy system. I love BBQ and all acronyms.

[esacjack]

My frag tank has no substrate, and uses a lot of rock, with the gyre method... my powerheads push water under the rocks (since they're lifted off the glass about 3 inches). So far, no detritus build up.

[ct67stang]

From what ive read, a deep sand bed IS pretty self sustaining. on the negative side; (patrick ive seen your deep sand bed setups and they look awesome.) It would take quite a bit of sand to get the required 4-6" a dsb needs which adds up $$ wise. Which im limited on at this time. :/

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[Planeden]

My frag tank has no substrate, and uses a lot of rock, with the gyre method... my powerheads push water under the rocks (since they're lifted off the glass about 3 inches). So far, no detritus build up.

if i remember you have a few fish in your frag tank, right? i think i should do this in my sump, too. raise the rubble off the glass and use the GAC reactor pump to blast it.

[ct67stang]

The only benefit to BB is if you want to run ULNS for a SPS heavy system. I love BBQ and all acronyms. 

as long as you dont call me an SOB or forget to RSVP for the BBQ U n I will OK. TTYL =D

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[ct67stang]

Another i considered:

I have bought several pieces. Of rock because they were either shelf like or had a flat side in them. And i also have two mag frag rocks that i have removed the magnets on and plan to use on the floor towards to front to view the frags better (pic shown) that way i can place all the flat pieces on the bottom glass leaving little room under them. Now i know that all the rock wont fit like legos so my fix to this i some very coarse sand i got from a member several months back. (Pic shown) i would then use that to fill all the joints between rocks making it harder for detritus to fall through. I also have a band saw that i was gonna use to cut some rock to make perfectly flat bottoms on them for this purpose.

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[ct67stang]

My frag tank has no substrate, and uses a lot of rock, with the gyre method... my powerheads push water under the rocks (since they're lifted off the glass about 3 inches).  So far, no detritus build up.

thats a thought.

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[Richard L]

The only benefit to BB is if you want to run ULNS for a SPS heavy system. I love BBQ and all acronyms.

lol

[Planeden]

i'll try to be helpful, but all i have right now is "i've got a bad feeling about this".

i think that one of my guts is saying that it would be hard to vacuum the substrate between the off brand lego rocks.

another is saying that with essentially no gaps for crud to get under it will settle on top of the rock. best way to clean that would be to blast it with flow. but you may not be able to do that with substrate.

off the top of my head, which may not be much, i would consider using pool foam to grout the rocks in place. you can press in some substrate to get a natural look. but this way you can use a powerhead, spraybar, etc. (air stones can work, but now i'm saying dirty words again) to keep all those troublesome nooks and crannies clean.

alternatively, my original thought to what you were describing was more of a rubble pile like you'd get at the bottom from chunks falling off. i'm sure it has a name, but you can see the effect at the base of some mountains. ironically, i believe that natural rubble pile is where our live rock comes from...but i digress. build that up off the bottom like esacjack and blow away. put in any large rocks you plan, then some of your flat pieces, and fill in with chucks of rubble of various sizes to fill the gaps.

[Jpowell490]

I will put my 2 cents into this. I have ran deep sand beds, shallow sand beds, and in between. You should NEVER vacuum your sand bed.

Get you a sand sifting goby and be done with it. I never, ever touch the sand bed. I have a few hermits which are a pain in the.... when it comes to keeping them off my clam and sps.

Your inhabitants will turn the sand over. As above, get you a good goby and a few snails, hermits, etc. and leave it alone.

Get the FINE sand, the Fiji Pink or something similar. Sand sifters will die if they swallow a larger sand rock or shell, I know this trust me, I had one die. So go with really fine sand and do the above, you will never have to touch it.

[subsea]

Chris,

With respect to the rock rubble you are considering for aqua scaping, use as little as possible to establish the look you desire. By choosing this feature for a bottom covering, you will inherit more maintenance for the life of the tank. With the rubble you are speaking about, it will collect detritus. Every other day, aggressively circulate detritus into the water column and allow your LPS to feed.

Patrick

[victoly]

I will put my 2 cents into this. I have ran deep sand beds, shallow sand beds, and in between. You should NEVER vacuum your sand bed.

Get you a sand sifting goby and be done with it. I never, ever touch the sand bed. I have a few hermits which are a pain in the.... when it comes to keeping them off my clam and sps.

Your inhabitants will turn the sand over. As above, get you a good goby and a few snails, hermits, etc. and leave it alone.

Get the FINE sand, the Fiji Pink or something similar. Sand sifters will die if they swallow a larger sand rock or shell, I know this trust me, I had one die. So go with really fine sand and do the above, you will never have to touch it.

Why should you never vacuum the bed?

[Jpowell490]

Vic,

The idea of a "live" sand bed is just that to me. It should be live and take care of itself. Now by vacuuming, I vacuum water out and swish it around a bit to kick up any detritus that hasn't been picked up previously.

If you have the correct clean up crew, you shouldn't ever have to vacuum your sand.

If you were running something very large like crushed coral, I could see vacuuming that. Sand, however, should be taken care of by the inhabitants.

And never vacuuming sand, it just removes your sand. You accomplish nothing really.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jpowell490

[subsea]

Vic,

The idea of a "live" sand bed is just that to me. It should be live and take care of itself. Now by vacuuming, I vacuum water out and swish it around a bit to kick up any detritus that hasn't been picked up previously.

If you have the correct clean up crew, you shouldn't ever have to vacuum your sand.

If you were running something very large like crushed coral, I could see vacuuming that. Sand, however, should be taken care of by the inhabitants.

And never vacuuming sand, it just removes your sand. You accomplish nothing really.

To accomplish the above eco system which you described requires much work and time to set up. The idea that it self maintains is a simplification that is not a reality which I achieved in 44 years of reefkeeping. Dr. Ron Shimek acknowledged that diversity in DSB could not be maintained without periodically adding detrivore kits to re-establish diversity in the sand bed eco system. This is similiar to the theory of "old tank syndrome". In land based ecosystems, a climax hard wood forest would be out competing other inhabitants and would have a mono diverse eco system.

Most of my sandbeds are set up with bacteria to process the front half of the nitrogen cycle. Nitrate and phosphate are processed out with the macro export and nutrient recycling within the tank.

A perfect example of this is the fine sand filter with a monoculture of micro inverts in my mud filter with bristle worms. It has been set up for 12 years and has increased slightly in depth to 1.1" and feels spongy to the touch. It is an organic soup of detritus and bristle worms.

Previously, Caulerpa Prolifera was the macro component of the vegetable filter.

Patrick