Jpowell490 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Patrick, That sounds like a sewage treatment plant lol. I have never had a sand bed that felt "spongy" to the touch, just feels like sand to me. No offense meant in any of these posts, just trying to help. If you are not achieving a good ecosystem in your reef tank, you are doing something wrong. If we know that we have a non existent ecosystem, or unstable, then we should never add any kind of livestock to it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Patrick, That sounds like a sewage treatment plant lol. I have never had a sand bed that felt "spongy" to the touch, just feels like sand to me. No offense meant in any of these posts, just trying to help. If you are not achieving a good ecosystem in your reef tank, you are doing something wrong. If we know that we have a non existent ecosystem, or unstable, then we should never add any kind of livestock to it. its a mud filter (like miracle mud), not quite like sand. mine felt a little spongy as soon as i added water to it. don't ask me the difference between mud and sand. smarter people than me couldn't explain it in terms i understood, so it would be of little help for me to try to repeat it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 My mud refugium and sump in my last tank had a somewhat spongy feel to them. It was only a year old when I took it down so may have not had enough macro fauna in it yet. I did notice lots of sponge or tunicate like fauna that extended into the substrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 The difference between mud and sand is grain size, although mud isn't really a geologically recognized grain classification. It's more like sand and then beneath sand is clay, which for out purposes behaves like a mud. "Mud" also tends to be heavily organic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jpowell490 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 OH! Well disregard then, I misread, I thought he was saying that about his SAND bed. Now if your mud is like that, I could see that. Sorry Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 It is a sewage treatment plant. It converts detritus into worms and macros that feed zooplankton rich in micro invert larvae and pods back into the display tank. Patrick 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Grog Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I do remote DSB in my sump. I tell visitors, non-reefers, that my sump is a sacrificial tank to make the main tank work. It is the liver of my system. I have large grain sand and due to the design, I cannot mess with it without some effort. My sump/DSM is on auto-pilot. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze152 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Just cover the bottom with LPS, Zoas and Pal then the BB looks good 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 Truthfully that was ine of my original plans semi-flat rocks with zoas and acans all over it. Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 I do remote DSB in my sump. I tell visitors, non-reefers, that my sump is a sacrificial tank to make the main tank work. It is the liver of my system. I have large grain sand and due to the design, I cannot mess with it without some effort. My sump/DSM is on auto-pilot.i have a hang on back refugium. But debated using it as a dsb, because it would be a pain to service it. How long can you run you dsb on auto pilot? Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckyuv Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 A gsp bottom sure would look cool. Make it look like a grass bottom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 A gsp bottom sure would look cool. Make it look like a grass bottom Yea that would be cool if gsp would promise to just stay there and nowhere else. Im growing it high on my back wall right now. I can easily control it that way gsp is awesomeSent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 A zoa on rock bottom would be my choice. if you look at the frag rock with the green zoas (thanks Ty) its flat on the glass bottom Gsp wall growing like crazy And here is some of the awesome rock i got from subsea I bought more from him but its in the sump till i make up my mind on the bb issue. Build thread coming soon Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Chris, Since your tank is stand alone, you must provide sufficient biofiltration within the tank or provide sufficient nutrient export using skimmers, partial water changes, macroalgae or corals prunning and removed. If your growth of colorful Zoe's is sufficiently fast enough to export nutrients as coral biomass which returns money. That is a model that will work and pay for itself. In looking at picture #1, your use of the eggcrate is precisely correct for setting up a high energy production system. The coralline is already adding colors to contrast the varied bright colors of Zoe's. it looks like a pirates jewel chest. To provide more bacteria filtration for the first half of the nitrogen cycle, I suggest that you use 1" deep or less of coarse arroggonite substrate. this will provide continuous bacteria to control ammonia and nitrite. The arroggonite will provide alkalinity buffering and trace mineral addition automatically whenever the pH drops below 8.05. Provide a gap of 1" between substrate and eggcrate. I use 3/4" PVC pipe to provide a gap between the solid bottom. Aggressive circulation is required so that sandbed is not a detritus sink. Daily, provide a surge effect to dislodge detritus from substrate. This will both feed and clean your zoes and other filter feeders. There are smart pumps that will create substantial cyclic waves to perform the function. Refugiums above display tanks can provide this surge as well. The sky is the limit. Laissez a bonne temps roulee, Patrick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I've done both and here are some of my experiences. BB BB is used by people who want coral display tanks and not reefs. They are used to keep ultra low nutrient systems with little to no fish. It's super easy to spot places to clean when the sand isn't hiding it. Because it's glass, you'll see every spec of anything that's on the bottom of the tank. Every piece of detrius or uneatten food will pile up in a corner of your tank and swirl around until it's taken out. If you have any fish at all then you'll be siphoning every day or at least a few times a week to keep it from being a distraction. You'll be limited on inhabitants. Going BB means you'll eliminate most Wrasses, Jawfish, Gobies, Hermits and Worms from your system. If you don't want these then it's not a problem. Stabilizing rockwork is harder without sand. You'll have to install some eggcrate or PVC structure to keep the rocks stable. It can be an eyesore. I noticed an increase in flow in the BB tank, even with the same pumps. The glass doesn't restrict the flow like the sand and decorations do so the same flow travels farther. Sand More natural look. Does house some CUC, but unless you're 4-6" deep then you won't get a lot of denitrification. Needed by certain fish. Used by some inverts, like snails, to hide and breed. Personally, I didn't notice a decrease in biofiltration going BB. Dedicating a section of your sump to LR helps. Biopellets didn't exist when I was doing BB, but I bet they would help a ton. I did notice a decrease in pods and asterna stars. I had a 30g refugium but I almost never saw pods in the display with a six line in there. There were a lot in the sump, but they didn't make the trip up. If you decide to go fishless then you will see pods in the display due to the absence of predators. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 The distinction between a show tank and a reef tank sparks much debate between choices. BB tanks and ULNS are extreme choices to show tanks. They require much maintenance and equipment to maintain at this level. I am a laissez faire reef keeper that enjoys his easy to maintain hobby. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 The distinction between a show tank and a reef tank sparks much debate between choices. BB tanks and ULNS are extreme choices to show tanks. They require much maintenance and equipment to maintain at this level. I am a laissez faire reef keeper that enjoys his easy to maintain hobby. Patrick BB is perfect for O.C.D. folks. It gives them a higher amount of control. Unfortunately, you can't cover the glass with corals or eggcrate. That would defeat the purpose of having a BB tank. The idea is that you can remove the detrius and waste so that it doesn't accumulate and decompose. Covering the bottom would be counterproductive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Grog Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Agree! My intent is to do nothing to my sand. There are a ton of things in there moving, sifting, filtering, and stirring it for me. I see little puffs like geysers all the time. Snails, worms, crabs. I would assume it could go on auto-pilot for as long as you have a good crew on board, and I'm having a go at it! Vic, ... If you have the correct clean up crew, you shouldn't ever have to vacuum your sand. ... And never vacuuming sand, it just removes your sand. You accomplish nothing really. I do remote DSB in my sump. I tell visitors, non-reefers, that my sump is a sacrificial tank to make the main tank work. It is the liver of my system. I have large grain sand and due to the design, I cannot mess with it without some effort. My sump/DSM is on auto-pilot.i have a hang on back refugium. But debated using it as a dsb, because it would be a pain to service it. How long can you run you dsb on auto pilot?uploadfromtaptalk1386569047745.jpgSent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 The distinction between a show tank and a reef tank sparks much debate between choices. BB tanks and ULNS are extreme choices to show tanks. They require much maintenance and equipment to maintain at this level. I am a laissez faire reef keeper that enjoys his easy to maintain hobby. Patrick BB is perfect for O.C.D. folks. It gives them a higher amount of control. Unfortunately, you can't cover the glass with corals or eggcrate. That would defeat the purpose of having a BB tank. The idea is that you can remove the detrius and waste so that it doesn't accumulate and decompose. Covering the bottom would be counterproductive. ok this comment has made realize that i need to explain what i meant by "BB" I really should have said sandbedless tank (but then i would not have neen able to use such a clever title . I dont want a tank with just open glass on the bottom. My idea was to not use any kind of sand but instead use a bunch of live rock on the bottom glass from corner to corner, giving the look of being on top of the reef and still building the typical rock build-up towards the back. Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 You might be able to get some local holey rock and have someone cut it to fit the bottom. Not sure who could cut slabs but surely someone could do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 But i think that doing away with the sandbed has WAY more cons than pros. I think i have a better understanding of what i want to do and why. And its thanks to all the input from you guys. Its really cool to get so many different points of view. I will artistically add a thin sandbed. And may do the dsb on the refugium. that way if im not happy with the dsb its alot easier to remove. Biodiversity is #1 on "MY" reef. a sandbedless tank limits that. So ill compromise and keep it diverse. Keep an eye out for my build thread. I plan to actually do a thread including all my past tanks to show my progression in this hobby. Heck when i started i was told that if this purple stuff (coraline) starts growing in your tank it means your doing great. Well i thought cyano was "that purple stuff" so i had a patch growing and was ecstatic. I was even moving my rocks near it to spread that great purple stuff:lol: but thanks to this club a few books for reference and google, im enjoying the heck out of this hobby and all that comes with it. You guys included. THANKS!! Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 You might be able to get some local holey rock and have someone cut it to fit the bottom. Not sure who could cut slabs but surely someone could do it.I have acces to a diamond saw that i might cut some of my lr with. And already have a few pieces that are cut. It actually feels like im doubling the amount of lr i have by slicing them in halfSent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Heck when i started i was told that if this purple stuff (coraline) starts growing in your tank it means your doing great. Well i thought cyano was "that purple stuff" so i had a patch growing and was ecstatic. I was even moving my rocks near it to spread that great purple stuff:lol: but thanks to this club a few books for reference and google, im enjoying the heck out of this hobby and all that comes with it. You guys included. THANKS!! Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 with the exception of the moving stuff closer, yeah, me too. at least we're pretty; we don't have to be smart. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 Heck when i started i was told that if this purple stuff (coraline) starts growing in your tank it means your doing great. Well i thought cyano was "that purple stuff" so i had a patch growing and was ecstatic. I was even moving my rocks near it to spread that great purple stuff:lol: but thanks to this club a few books for reference and google, im enjoying the heck out of this hobby and all that comes with it. You guys included. THANKS!! Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 with the exception of the moving stuff closer, yeah, me too. at least we're pretty; we don't have to be smart. lol Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Heck when i started i was told that if this purple stuff (coraline) starts growing in your tank it means your doing great. Well i thought cyano was "that purple stuff" so i had a patch growing and was ecstatic. I was even moving my rocks near it to spread that great purple stuff:lol: but thanks to this club a few books for reference and google, im enjoying the heck out of this hobby and all that comes with it. You guys included. THANKS!! Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 with the exception of the moving stuff closer, yeah, me too. at least we're pretty; we don't have to be smart. Dennis, Who told you that you were pretty? Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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