150 tall build

[Jmvanness]

So, I'm starting my first SW tank after many years keeping FW. I have a 150 tall with one overflow. I have a 30gal on the tank now, but will be replacing it with a 55 gallon. So here's my plan.

Months 1-3:

add dry and live rock to the tank and try to find a skimmer.

Month 4:

find appropriate lighting (this is probably my biggest area of uncertainty) and start adding soft corals

Month 5:

start adding inverts

Month 6:

Start adding fish

Current tentative stock list:

various tangs

clown fish (2 pairs)

honey damsels

firefish

pygmy possum filefish

small wrasses

softcorals

Any suggestions on my plan, stock list, a "centerpiece" fish, or equipment?

[Planeden]

welcome to ARC. you and i are in the same boat, so i have no help to offer, but look forward to watching the build.

[subsea]

With respect to your stocking plan, your choices are compatible and should do well together. I like your 6 month plan, patience is a good thing in this hobby. I suggest you leave the skimmer out of the required list.

If you will have a 55G refugium, you will have ample room to provide diverse biological filtration using bacteria in substrate and macroalgae uptake of nutrients. Prunnings is a very efficient way to export nutrients from the system. If you have Tangs, they will appreciate fresh macro as a nutrient recycling. Pods in the refugium with the macro will provide additional live food to your fish and corals.

What substrate do you have in your display tank and how deep? I like to use aroggonite to get passive alkalinity buffering as well as trace mineral addittion.

For the livestock that you mentioned, T5 would be a good light source. On my 135G tank, 4' by 2' by 30" deep, I used an eight bulb fixture to fill tank with abundant light: 1:1 ratio of actinic to 6500K. This combination will grow coral and macro alike.

Enjoy the hobby.

La bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

[victoly]

I'm here to represent the pro-skimmer lobby. Check out all the top tier tanks in town and check out their sumps. Every last one of the has a skimmer.

[subsea]

Good macro reference:

http://marineplantbook.com/marineplantbookgreenalgae.htm

Good clean up crew reference:

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/cleanupcrew.html

Biotheme suggestions: Emulate nature

http://www.fishchannel.com/saltwater-aquariums/aquarium-frontiers/natural-coral-reef.aspx

[FarmerTy]

I am pro skimmer as well. Depending the depth of your tank, the options will vary for best results but I know metal halide lighting will give you some of the greatest penetration of light at greater depths. I will let the LED camp chime in since I don't know much about LEDS.

[Jmvanness]

Thanks for the info guys. As I have always been in FW, I'll have to do a lot of research before deciding to skim or not to skim.

I want to use aragonite as I am very familiar with and have a lot of it, but I don't know about depth. With 150lbs of live rock, what would you suggest for sand depth?

As for lights, I currently have 2x 4' and 2x 30" T5 coralifes, but I was told they wouldn't work because they are the small slim ones instead of the High output ones. Anyone?

[subsea]

If you have T5, they are HO.

Use the lights that you have. If they are insufficient for your livestock, you can add or upgrade. Tanks are easier to operate when they are underlite as oppossed to overlite.

With respect to aragonite, what grain size do you have? With that much live rock, your circulation could easily be a problem. Unless, you were interested in dsb methods, I would limit substrate depth to 1" of aragonite in the display.

What plans do you have with your refugium?

[Jmvanness]

This is all very confusing. What would I need to add to the 2 two bulb t5's to make them appropriate?

The sand is pretty fine. What would you recommend for the amount of live rock? I've heard everything from 1 lb per gallon to 1.5 lbs per gallon.

I am worried about circulation, but I can add another pump or another of the internal fan things (already have one).

As for the refugium, I haven't gotten that far. So far I've been reading about soft corals, reef safe fish, live rock, and lighting.

[victoly]

Add more lights to the T5's if they won't grow what you want to grow.

[Jmvanness]

OOOH and Subsea, Thanks for those links. They were very informative and helpful. The clean up crew one and the biotheme one especially

[Jmvanness]

with my current lights and a halide I am buying on the cheaps, I'll have around 241w, with my 30" deep tank how much more should I add to start?

[Brooks]

I would say that 2 x 250w would be good... I use 2 x on my 135g. OR, since it is a 150 tall, what are the dimensions? If it is that deep, then you might consider a 400w, or using 2 x 250w with LumenBrite reflectors. These reflectors allow deeper light penetration, as they are more dome-like, than square. These are what I use on my 135g, and they give very good spread. Another plus, is they reduce heat since they can be kept higher, further from the surface of the water.

I also say get a skimmer... the extra nutrients CAN be exported via natural means. However, if you can export them faster and more efficiently, why not do it? Do your research on some good ones. Victoly, Bio^3 & Capt. Obvious are all experts when it comes to equipment.

[subsea]

Let us discuss current recommendations of live rock amount. I don't agree with them with respect to bio filtration capabilities for live rock amount. I use live rock to introduce biodiversity. I use substrate for bio filtration. Keep substrate depth to 1" maximum to prevent sulfide bacteria in display tank. Depending on your tank foot print, it will take 150 lbs of Caribsea Special Reef Grade at .1mm-1mm. These bacteria will perform nitrification using two types of bacteria which consume large amounts of oxygen as ammonia is converted to nitrite and then as nitrate. Nitrate is a nutrient and it is used by photosyntic organisms including microalgae, macro algae and coral. The inhabitants of the system will consume nutrients into there biomass. Getting the desirable biomass to grow is the challenge to the keeper of the reef. Use harvesting and removal of macro algae as a nutrient export mechanism. Use gravel vacuming as a nutrient export mechanism. Water changes are a nutrient export mechanism.

Why use a refugium? From my point of view, refugiums process nutrients and perform multiple nutrient pathways. In the process of multiple nutrient pathways, different food webs are established that feed your display tank. Besides pods which feed fish and anemone, there are numerous larvae from the worms living in the mud filter.

My oldest set up is 11 years. A 75G Jaubert DSB Plenum on top with a EcoSystem mud/macro filter on bottom.

If you wanted the extra insurance of a protein skimmer, then make the last compartment big enough for skimmer and return pump. Until you have a complete food web, I would not use a skimmer for the first six months.

Edited April 25, 2013 by subsea

[subsea]

with my current lights and a halide I am buying on the cheaps, I'll have around 241w, with my 30" deep tank how much more should I add to start?

How much do you want to spend?

Brooks gave you good information on a very robust lighting configuration that should grow most everything. In my opinion, you do not need that much light to start out. Use the 241W in your start up phase to get coraline going for the first three months. Upgrade to more robust lighting after 3 months.

[Brooks]

Let us discuss current recommendations of live rock amount. I don't agree with them with respect to bio filtration capabilities for live rock amount. I use live rock to introduce biodiversity. I use substrate for bio filtration. Keep substrate depth to 1" maximum to prevent sulfide bacteria in display tank. Depending on your tank foot print, it will take 150 lbs of Caribsea Special Reef Grade at .1mm-1mm. These bacteria will perform nitrification using two types of bacteria which consume large amounts of oxygen as ammonia is converted to nitrite and then as nitrate. Nitrate is a nutrient and it is used by photosyntic organisms including microalgae, macro algae and coral. The inhabitants of the system will consume nutrients into there biomass. Getting the desirable biomass to grow is the challenge to the keeper of the reef. Use harvesting and removal of macro algae as a nutrient export mechanism. Use gravel vacuming as a nutrient export mechanism. Water changes are a nutrient export mechanism.

Why use a refugium? From my point of view, refugiums process nutrients and perform multiple nutrient pathways. In the process of multiple nutrient pathways, different food webs are established that feed your display tank. Besides pods which feed fish and anemone, there are numerous larvae from the worms living in the mud filter.

My oldest set up is 11 years. A 75G Jaubert DSB Plenum on top with a EcoSystem mud/macro filter on bottom.

If you wanted the extra insurance of a protein skimmer, then make the last compartment big enough for skimmer and return pump. Until you have a complete food web, I would not use a skimmer for the first six months.

I agree with the methods listed, but on a smaller scale, sand and live rock can only do so much. Biological filtration isn't a fast process. The use of a skimmer expedites the process by doing exactly what live rock, sand, and macroalgae do. That process being of course, the removal of excess nutrients. For the sustainability of delicate corals, and fish as well, having a skimmer is a viable, and proven method to success. Adding a refugium only increases chance for success, in my opinion. However, you can go 1 of 3 ways. Without a skimmer utilizing only refugium, without a refugium utilizing only a skimmer, or with both... which is my preferred method (and the most common in current reef-keeping). Keep in mind that live rock and macro algae can be kept in far less-favorable conditions than what is required by most coral.

I disagree that a food chain cannot be established when a skimmer is present. I say this, because the food chain in an aquarium is created entirely by the person feeding... nature isn't taking it's course as it does in the ocean, in an aquarium. What would the variables be if the tank has already undergone it's nitrification cycle? The environment is completely controlled... Unless, of course, you add inhabitants that eat one another. I don't see what waiting 6 months accomplishes... if you wait to add the skimmer so a food chain can be established, would adding the skimmer 6 months later destroy the food chain you waited 6 months to create? If that were the case, why get a skimmer? Also, putting the skimmer in the same compartment as the return pump is likely to cause micro-bubbles, which is another reason why we have baffles. I've always kept my skimmer on the opposite end of my sump -- away from the return.

with my current lights and a halide I am buying on the cheaps, I'll have around 241w, with my 30" deep tank how much more should I add to start?

How much do you want to spend?

Brooks gave you good information on a very robust lighting configuration that should grow most everything. In my opinion, you do not need that much light to start out. Use the 241W in your start up phase to get coraline going for the first three months. Upgrade to more robust lighting after 3 months.

I don't understand why more "robust" light should be introduced later. Coraline algae would grow in either circumstance, so why not add the light at once? Coraline is also not something that is needed in reef aquaria. And, after 3 months, you would then have to acclimate your coral to having more light, versus doing it once. Time, effort and money is wasted in purposefully utilizing less "robust," light sources.

[subsea]

Ron Schmick doucuments nitrifying bacteria populations doubling every 20 minutes. I do not call that slow. I have seen C. Prolifera blade width double in one 12 hour photoperiod. I do not call that slow.

With respect to the skimmer, doing exactly the same thing as bacteria, macro and coral: I don't think so. Live food production at the bottom of the food chain is not the same thing as adding frozen foods. To say that the reef keeper is the beginning and the end of the food chain is a statement that requires more documentation then you have provided.

[Brooks]

Ron Schmick doucuments nitrifying bacteria populations doubling every 20 minutes. I do not call that slow. I have seen C. Prolifera blade width double in one 12 hour photoperiod. I do not call that slow.

With respect to the skimmer, doing exactly the same thing as bacteria, macro and coral: I don't think so. Live food production at the bottom of the food chain is not the same thing as adding frozen foods. To say that the reef keeper is the beginning and the end of the food chain is a statement that requires more documentation then you have provided.

And the effects of the nitrifying bacteria? Fast enough to completely break down excess nutrients in a small environment in the time needed? I don't think so. There have been many cases where a skimmer goes out, and a tank crashes. Give me 1 hour and I'll link 10. I think if someone wants to keep a completely efficient reef, a skimmer is needed. There is far less room for error. Like I said, there have been many reefs that are successful going skimmerless. How many of those reefs do we see around today? There are two that I've seen achieve long-term sustainability. In both cases, large volume water changes are needed weekly.

I'm not saying your methods, as well as the documentation and studies of others is incorrect. Nor am I saying that nitrifying bacteria, macro algae, live rock, and live sand aren't efficient. I AM saying that in a smaller environment, the effects of excess nutrients (Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, Phosphate) are much more detrimental and of course appear faster than when your total water volume numbers in the thousands. You have thousands of gallons of live rock; of course your nitrifying bacteria population, macro algae, etc. is going to flourish. You also supply it with thousands of watts of high-intensity lighting. Where are the excess nutrients coming from that are often found on a small-scale aquarium, like the one we're speaking of in this thread?

A reef keeper is the beginning and the end of a food chain. Your environment is entirely controlled. Period. What happens when you feed too much? You start to get higher amounts of excess nutrients in your aquarium. When you feed less? Smaller amounts. After your cycle is completed, your beneficial bacteria counts increase. Of course, why wouldn't they? I never said they didn't.

Bottom line, get a skimmer. You can't go wrong with it. If you look around, you'll see many more tanks that run with a skimmer and are successful, opposed to those that run without one. I'm sure if we visit other forums and look at the TOTM winners, every single one (with the exception of 1 or 2) run skimmers. If you're wanting to keep SPS, there isn't an option.

[victoly]

[mFrame]

We're starting to head off topic here people, or rather deeper into topics than required to answer the original post. Let's keep discussion of different methodologies in their own areas (lagoon tanks, equipment) and direct members there for more in-depth discussion.

[Jmvanness]

So thanks to August and Jake my plans have changed a bit.

My new build will be:

150 tall tank with overflow in the back center

55 gallon sump with 200 gallon rated skimmer (I'll get more details about this when I can)

2 circulation pumps

heater of course

~90 lbs of live rock

~120 lbs of live sand plus the aragonite already in the tank

MH lighting (2x 250w 20k MH with reflectors ballast and a couple actinics)

I'm also getting a sailfin tang, a scopas tang and some corals which I have no Idea what to do with while I wait for the tank to cycle.

So my questions:

What should i do to my sump to get it ready? What do I do with the fish and corals while everything cycles? How long will that take? I've heard from instantly to a week...

I'm adding some pics of my big ugly sump and my preliminary aquascape idea. Let me know what you guys think.

[Jmvanness]

Also here's an updated stock list:

Lavender tube sponge

Orange fan sponge

green star polyps

purple people eater paly coral

mushrooms

zoas

Kenya tree

Brain coral

Torch coral

Sun coral

feather dusters

brittle star

anemone (suggestions needed)

scopas tang

sailfin tang

blue hippo tang

yellow tang

flame or bicolor angel

orchid dottyback or magenta pseudochromis

pajama cardinal

a pair of clownfish

honey damsel

green clown goby

watchman goby

firefish goby

blennies

six line wrasse

whip fin fairy wrasse

I left out any crustaceans because I've heard they're all *****.. would really like an arrow crab or two though... suggestions welcome

Also not sure what kind of snails...

You guys feel free to let me know if I've made any serious mistakes with my stock list. I'm aware of the potential problems with any angel, so that one is covered, but any of the others please let me know. I also need to know if this is too much, too little etc... These are just fish that have caught my eye. Thanks!

[Brooks]

I like the new equipment ideas, as well as the updated stock list.

Here is what I would take out, and why:

• 1 or 2 Tangs - Depending on your dimensions, they might not have much horizontal swimming room. I'm keeping 2 total in my 135g, that is 60" long. Just something to consider.
• Honey Damsel (or any other sort of damsel aside from Clownfish) - They're aggressive and you will regret it, lol.
• Green Clown Goby - They're itty bitty. The likelihood of you actually seeing it in a tank that size is pretty small.
• Green Star Polyps - They spread very quickly and become a nuisance after a few short months. While beautiful, you might consider setting them on their on in the sand so they can't spread to the rest of your rock.

As far as how long it takes to cycle, it takes time... If you are using already cured live rock, you should cycle fairly quickly. I typically say 1-2 weeks if you are already using pre-cured live rock. You will have to monitor the parameters. You can prepare your sump by starting your refugium. Meaning, you add a DSB (if you so choose), live rock rubble, and macro algae. Then of course a light for them to grow. Your sump is pretty tall, so you might consider putting it in the middle or right column? I don't really know - ask for some more opinions. I'm sure others will chime in.

[victoly]

An option for GSPs is to keep them on a separate rock that is away from your main rock work.

[subsea]

With 20K MH I would not think that you would want to add actinics. If you have actinics, you may want to go with 10K to l4K on your MH bulb.

On my 75G tank, I have power compact actinics with a14K bulb on the left side of tank. I removed the second 250W bulb due to too much heat.

In the second picture, note the colony of GSP. I like your choice.

Patrick

Edited April 26, 2013 by subsea