Clownfish breeding build thread - first go at it

[Mr Cob]

A couple pics of the sumps I have running on two of the broodstock systems.

I run sumps with DSB, macro algae, live rock, skimmer, heater, sock filters, carbon, phosban pads and UV.

[ChaosFyre]

Different races and different species are a touch different...last time I checked nobody believed breeding a farm horse to a zebra would be an ok thing to get "cool" looking morphs with unreliable genetic basis, that you can sell for a quick buck. While a horse and a zebra are of the same genus, they are NOT the same species. Just as Amphiprion oscellaris, and Amphiprion percula are not. Breeding different species is not the same as breeding different races, just because they look differently.

Breeding hybrids is equally as irresponsible and detrimental to the hobby and to legitimate breeding, as slicing a living, functioning animal (for example, take an anemone) in two and calling it "fragging" is.

The function of legitimate ornamental breeding is, and should be, focused on maintaining and conserving a species.

^ I have to disagree with this. Actually, people DO breed horses and zebras, horses and ponies and get Zorses and Zonies. These can and are ridden, and in fact, I saw one at a children's pony fair. Mules are hybrid horses and donkeys, and have been around since B.C.

Hybrids can and do occur in the wild, and hybridization increases genetic variation. The more genetic variation the better, because some species may fall to a disease, for example, but a different or mixed species won't, etc. Sometimes if the species are different enough, the offspring will be sterile (as in the case of most mules). However, that does not take away from the hybrid's usefulness or beauty. It may be cruel to say it, but captive fish exist only to please us. What is prettiest to us ensures more propagation and survival to the fish. You can see the same theme in domesticated animals, which are cuter/more appealing than their wild counterparts. Humans and animal husbandry is a symbiotic relationship. The animals don't "mind" being "cuter" if it means we are more likely to care for them.

That's just my outlook on it, anyway.

I have a BS in genetics from Texas A&M University. Working on my Masters in Biotechnology. My family bred horses, which is what got me interested in genetics. And, I would love to breed clownfish. I have a solid black clown with a misbar on on side, and a snowflake clownfish.

[ChaosFyre]

Mr Cob,

Don't let the heat you are getting on this keep you from updating us on your progress. Lot's of people have opinions on this topic ( I do) but just as many of us are interested in your results.

If you decide you need to rehome some little clowns let me know!

Me too. I love my platinum and naked. I was hoping they would pair up but they have been together for about 6 months and still sleep in separate places. I would love to get into breeding someday when I have more time.

I found that using holding containers in the same tank that they are currently in helps to make that bond. My platinum used to sleep in the corner while the darwin would sleep in the RBTA. The platinum is the female. Putting them in a holding container for a day or two every other week can help to encourage a better bond.

Check it out... I took two net breeders and sealed them together and removed the flooring of the top one to make one container:

Here's another container idea... took a plastic crate and ziptied mesh around it:

just some cheap ideas to get a quick holding container together

This is ingenious. I was wanting something like this, for other reasons, but still. Great idea!

[ChaosFyre]

I finally took some time to get a few pics of the rotifer culture. I kept the culture that I got from Reed Mariculture in the fridge (laying flat on a towel, towel is porous allowing the bag to breath) for about a week and a half. The majority of the culture died off which was evident in the smelly water. BUT..enough lived to keep the culture going.

The first day I only had about 1 or 2 rotifers per ml, and a week later I'm up to about 10/ml. I believe I need to be at a density of around 15 rotifers per ml in order to feed clownfish larvae.

Other recommended numbers that I found in case you are curious:

SG: 1.007-1.014 (I'm at 1.020, I have no idea if this will be a problem)

Temp: 68-88 (I'm at 74, or same as house temp, not running a heater)

PH: 8 is best (7.2low-9high - no idea where I'm at)

Feeding: I'm feeding 4ml of RotiGrow per day for a 5g bucket (I started at 2ml and raised it up to 4ml, I believe I will stay at 4ml)

Some pics..

I cut a hole in the top of the bucket to hang some floss. Just used some fishing line, an acrylic tube and a weight at the end to keep the floss hanging in the water.

What is the string for and whats that attached to it? A sponge or rag of some kind? Do the rotifers live in it?

[ChaosFyre]

thx, cool of you to say that'

I'm very surprised that this pair is already nesting, they've only been together for a week or so. The female tore into the male the first day and that was over the very next day.

I love this video. They are as happy as a bug in a rug. I see mine doing this sometimes, but they haven't settled on a spot. Actually, my pair looks almost just like this. The black here is a black ice? I wonder if mine is a black ice clownfish then. I've just been calling it "black"...

[ChaosFyre]

thx Mike, I really appreciate the comment. I thought cichlids were the best...then I discovered saltwater.. you know how that goes.

Picked up the stand for the sectioned breeder tank today. Allan over at Texas Tropical did a really nice job on it. 40" tall.. and another item on store credit..lol. You should see my corals.. they are all frags now.

I haven't decided if I will add another divider to the right side yet. I have one more that I picked up from regal plastics but still thinking about if I want the swim room for growout or divided for another 2 pairs.

Will this breeder tank just be for the pairs to lay eggs in? Is that unsuccessful in a normal DT with other fish and corals? Would you take the breeding pair out after the eggs are lain? A friend of mine has a pair of clownfish that lay eggs every few weeks in his DT, but of course they hatch and become fish food... I wanted to take a batch of eggs from him and try to raise them someday, but now I have my own pair. It looks like you need a lot of equipment so far...

[ChaosFyre]

Made a little more progress after dealing with ich on the black ice x snowflake pair. I lost them both : (

Added two pairs to the breeder system today.

Snow Onyx x Snow Onyx (hybrids)

Platinum x grade a Picasso (true percula0

uploadfromtaptalk1355606940720.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1355606961030.jpg

The black ice pair in my biocube

uploadfromtaptalk1355606903014.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1355606918830.jpg

Really loving this sump I added to the 4 stall breeder system:

uploadfromtaptalk1355606888240.jpg

Your tanks are really gorgeous. I'm sorry to hear about the pair that you lost to ich. I rescued a purple tang from a LFS that had a really bad case of ich. They were afraid he was going to die, so they sold him to me for $80. I treated him with hyposalinity for 6 weeks. The first day of treament, all the spots were gone. Now he is in my DT, fat and healthy and gorgeous. I've used hyposalinity to treat all my incoming fish for ich while they are in quarantine. Maybe this method could help you.

[ChaosFyre]

Here is the other percula pair, platinum and picasso. The platinum is really white.

uploadfromtaptalk1356670078017.jpg

Sent from my HTC VIVID using Tapatalk

Oh wow, the platinum is GORGEOUS. I think this pair is my favorite!

[ChaosFyre]

Really wish I was posting something more than swaying tails in a pot but that's all I got for now.

I'm thinking this pair will be the first to get me some babies:

Onyx (wild) x Premium Onyx Picasso

Here is my favorite pair:

Darwin misbar x Black Snowflake

Oh, gorgeous!!! That one onyx is HUGE. But my new favorite of your pairs is the darwin and the black snowflake. My dream fish is the black snowflake without any orange on it at all, including the face. I'm really keen to see how the offspring of this pair turn out. I would looove a solid black snowflake clown.

[ChaosFyre]

Here is the Snowflake and Wyoming White pair (Sea and Reef), they are younger than my other pairs but they are still of breeding size. A little over 2" on the snowflake and 1.75" on the WW.

That WW is gorgeous too. I'd love to see one paired with a darwin or a black snowflake. Imagine if the offspring had black faces and fins instead of orange. It would be glowing white with black accents.

[ChaosFyre]

So...I had a rotifer culture crash. I have ordered more rotifers and paid for priority overnight so hopefully they get here in time. In the interim I have a very very low count of tiny rotifers and I purchased some frozen dead rotifers. Just hoping to keep them alive until I have rotifers in full swing again.

I also picked up a Seachem amonia alert strip and Seachem Prime. Hopefully I can keep the amonia in check since I added frozen rotifers. I know they probably won't eat the frozen rotifers but I have to try and I have managed to keep the dead food from settling on the bottom of the tank and I promise it looks like they are eating. Very active little fish. I can almost see them hunting. I think. I don't have much to compare to since this is my first rearing.

Top down right after adding frozen rotifers

Side view from my little cut out window (I close the window when I'm not viewing them)

Oh wow. This is so exciting! I'm glad I came in when I did and didn't have to suffer through the wait like everyone else. I'm new to the forum... sorry for spamming as I caught up... I'm just really excited about this topic. Please forgive me!

I am new to the hobby. I started Jan 1st 2013, this year. My tank is almost 6 months old now. Here's a question: why do you need the clownfish male to stay with the eggs until they are almost about to hatch (that is what I got from an earlier post on this thread)? In freshwater betas, the male keeps the eggs in the nest and gives them fresh oxygen. Is it something like that?

Thanks so much for taking the time to update this. I've been hanging from every word/video as I read through the entire thread. I've already learned so much.

I wonder if I could foster my pair with you long enough for the babes to hatch, when mine are old enough to begin spawning. We could maybe split the babies and the profit? I don't know if you still have a pair like mine-- black and white clown (darwin?) and a snowflake. Mine are about an inch and a half long and the snowflake is definitely the female.

Edited May 27, 2013 by ChaosFyre

[Mr Cob]

Thanks for the comments Fyre, I'll try and take some time soon to reply to all of your questions. It's nice to see others with the same excitement and I'm always happy to share my experience.

To answer your question above... yes, the male fans the eggs to keep fungus from growing on them and to provide oxygen and water circulation.

[Mr Cob]

What is the string for and whats that attached to it? A sponge or rag of some kind? Do the rotifers live in it?

The string or fishing line is attached to a plastic clamp to hang rotifer floss, which helps clean the water in the rotifer bucket by catching the waste from the rotifers. It is not needed but very helpful. I no longer hang the floss, I just clamp it to the heater wire. A heater is also not needed to run a rotifer culture but I do use one in one bucket and none in the other bucket. We keep our house temp around 73-74. I run a heater in only one just to spread my risk out on the two buckets. If your rotifer culture crashes, you are out of business until you can order more.

I love this video. They are as happy as a bug in a rug. I see mine doing this sometimes, but they haven't settled on a spot. Actually, my pair looks almost just like this. The black here is a black ice? I wonder if mine is a black ice clownfish then. I've just been calling it "black"...

Back Ice are snowflakes that are the result of breeding a snowflake with a darwin black and white. Darwins are black and white clownfish that come from Darwin Australia.

Will this breeder tank just be for the pairs to lay eggs in? Is that unsuccessful in a normal DT with other fish and corals? Would you take the breeding pair out after the eggs are lain? A friend of mine has a pair of clownfish that lay eggs every few weeks in his DT, but of course they hatch and become fish food... I wanted to take a batch of eggs from him and try to raise them someday, but now I have my own pair. It looks like you need a lot of equipment so far...

One 4 stall system is for spawning pairs only. It runs at 0.020-0.022 salinity and at 82 heat. The other 4 stall system is for keeping pairs that I sell and coral and it runs at 79 heat and 0.024-0.025 salinity. CLownfish will lay fine in a DT but having a system dedicated to spawning gives the most control and options to encourage spawning. They also like to be fed 4-7 times a day which is much easier to do in a system without coral and sand.

Your tanks are really gorgeous. I'm sorry to hear about the pair that you lost to ich. I rescued a purple tang from a LFS that had a really bad case of ich. They were afraid he was going to die, so they sold him to me for $80. I treated him with hyposalinity for 6 weeks. The first day of treament, all the spots were gone. Now he is in my DT, fat and healthy and gorgeous. I've used hyposalinity to treat all my incoming fish for ich while they are in quarantine. Maybe this method could help you.

Thanks, glad you were able to save your fish, hyposalinity works well, coupled with heavy feedings, garlic and even high heat. Going fishless for 90 days is really the only way to rid a system of ich...and of course treating the fish with copper.

I run my broodstock tanks at 0.020-0.022 salinity and heat at 82-83. Just one benefit of not having corals in broodstock systems. Low salinity limits fish disease and high heat encourages growth and spawning. I also run UV which also helps with fish disease and helps keep alagae in check, especially with so much feeding.

Oh, gorgeous!!! That one onyx is HUGE. But my new favorite of your pairs is the darwin and the black snowflake. My dream fish is the black snowflake without any orange on it at all, including the face. I'm really keen to see how the offspring of this pair turn out. I would looove a solid black snowflake clown.

Yeah, it's my favorite too! I'm thinking the offspring will be all black snowflake. The face on the black snowflake male is almost all black. At some point it will be. When I forst got him his face was mostly orange. They typically take a while for all black to come in, similar to onyx clownfish.

Let me know if you have any further questions, my wife and I enjoyed your enthusiasm when you were posting all the replies!

[Mr Cob]

Been awhile since I updated what pairs I have.

At the moment I'm working with 6 pairs. That seems to change pretty frequently as I seem to always sell a pair or swap out in trades. I'm undecided on a couple of pairs as I really only want to work with one hybrid pair.


1) Wild Caught Onyx female X Onyx Picasso male (Proaquatix) - currently spawning and rearing babies

2) Half Onyx Misbar female (Sea&Reef) X Black Ice Snowflake male (Sea&Reef) - *HYBRID offspring* spawning pair not currently in cycle

3) Platinum female (lineage?) X Midnight male (ORA) - *HYBRID offspring* female has spawned before but not with this male

4) Misbar Darwin female (lineage?) X Buckshot Black Snowflake male (Proaquatix) - not spawning but nesting and I'm expecting this pair to lay next

5) Black Photon female Hybrid (Sea&Reef) X Super Picasso (lineage?) - *HYBRID offspring* not spawning, bonded pair that should start getting serious soon

6) Snowflake female w/big blue lines (Sea&Reef) X Blacker Ice Snowflake (Proaquatix) - not spawning, bonded pair that just started nesting

Here is one of the two 4 stall systems that I have:

[ChaosFyre]

Thanks for responding to everything. I am a little embarrassed seeing all I wrote lol. You gave great responses though, and answered all my questions well. My black clown is not that big, but he is all black. You may see him in my tank thread in month 5. Boy would I love some black snowflake clowns... I saw black ice snowflakes in the LFS today. They looked really cool, but they were going for $110 each! And they were really small. I'd prefer a black snowflake, maybe buckshot black snowflake, anyway. Maybe I can somehow breed mine, get black ice clowns, and sell/trade the fry for black snowflake. By that time I hope to have another tank set up to put it in. Have you had any success/experience/advice getting two pairs or more of clowns in the same DT tank?

Also, have you heard of clownfish actually being hatched and raised in a DT with other fish?

I had an idea to put the eggs/fry in a long tube sock, maybe black cloth or something, with wiring inside to keep it from collapsing, and a lid to keep light out. Clowns eat rotifers first, then switch to frozen mysis shrimp, right? Once they got large enough I could move them to my QT to grow out.

Or maybe I should just convert my QT from the start...

Edited May 29, 2013 by ChaosFyre

[Planeden]

Chaos, I'd think you'd want to put them in you QT from the start. Maybe get the parents to lay there and thn move them out.

[Mr Cob]

Updates on the onyx X onyx picasso pair

-nest 6 was laid on 5/17 and is 13 days old and is in the middle of metamorphosis (last count was around 60 babies, only 1 has passed since starting meta)

-nest 7 was laid on 5/23 and is hatching right now : ) (has been a long evening, doing water changes, feeding babies, adding a second and third larvae tank, roti maintenance, pulling a pot etc)

[Mr Cob]

Chaos, I'd think you'd want to put them in you QT from the start. Maybe get the parents to lay there and thn move them out.

agree

Thanks for responding to everything. I am a little embarrassed seeing all I wrote lol. You gave great responses though, and answered all my questions well. My black clown is not that big, but he is all black. You may see him in my tank thread in month 5. Boy would I love some black snowflake clowns... I saw black ice snowflakes in the LFS today. They looked really cool, but they were going for $110 each! And they were really small. I'd prefer a black snowflake, maybe buckshot black snowflake, anyway. Maybe I can somehow breed mine, get black ice clowns, and sell/trade the fry for black snowflake. By that time I hope to have another tank set up to put it in. Have you had any success/experience/advice getting two pairs or more of clowns in the same DT tank? <typically multiple pairs in the same DT isn't going to happen unless you have a very large system and perhaps only if they were together from the get go as babies...even then most have to separate them as they mature and establish dominance>

Also, have you heard of clownfish actually being hatched and raised in a DT with other fish? <there are too many variables in trying to raise fry in a DT, not sure where to even begin>

I had an idea to put the eggs/fry in a long tube sock, maybe black cloth or something, with wiring inside to keep it from collapsing, and a lid to keep light out. <interesting thought, my only thought is that there would be way too many clowns in such a small area to keep up with a dense population of rotifers, would require hourly feedings I would think> Clowns eat rotifers first, then switch to frozen mysis shrimp, right? <I go from live rotifers to Otohime, a lot of people recommend live rotifers to live brine shrimp then to Otohime. Too many variables for me with feeding live brine> Once they got large enough I could move them to my QT to grow out. <nothing says you couldn't try your idea, sounds very creative but I just went with what works and then made my own mods as I have progressed>

Or maybe I should just convert my QT from the start... <LOL>

When you say he is all black is he all black like a midnight clownfish or black and white like a darwin? Doesn't matter, just curious what you have.

[Planeden]

I had an idea to put the eggs/fry in a long tube sock, maybe black cloth or something, with wiring inside to keep it from collapsing, and a lid to keep light out. <interesting thought, my only thought is that there would be way too many clowns in such a small area to keep up with a dense population of rotifers, would require hourly feedings I would think>

i don't she, or her fiancée, may have have really big feet.

[Mr Cob]

haha! True! Had not thought of that. like 3 gallon tube socks maybe.

[ChaosFyre]

I had an idea to put the eggs/fry in a long tube sock, maybe black cloth or something, with wiring inside to keep it from collapsing, and a lid to keep light out. <interesting thought, my only thought is that there would be way too many clowns in such a small area to keep up with a dense population of rotifers, would require hourly feedings I would think>

i don't she, or her fiancée, may have have really big feet.

Lol, I didn't mean literally, a sock. I meant, like, a wind-sock. A DIY sock, if you will. =)

[ChaosFyre]

Chaos, I'd think you'd want to put them in you QT from the start. Maybe get the parents to lay there and thn move them out.

agree

>Thanks for responding to everything. I am a little embarrassed seeing all I wrote lol. You gave great responses though, and answered all my questions well. My black clown is not that big, but he is all black. You may see him in my tank thread in month 5. Boy would I love some black snowflake clowns... I saw black ice snowflakes in the LFS today. They looked really cool, but they were going for $110 each! And they were really small. I'd prefer a black snowflake, maybe buckshot black snowflake, anyway. Maybe I can somehow breed mine, get black ice clowns, and sell/trade the fry for black snowflake. By that time I hope to have another tank set up to put it in. Have you had any success/experience/advice getting two pairs or more of clowns in the same DT tank? <typically multiple pairs in the same DT isn't going to happen unless you have a very large system and perhaps only if they were together from the get go as babies...even then most have to separate them as they mature and establish dominance>

Also, have you heard of clownfish actually being hatched and raised in a DT with other fish? <there are too many variables in trying to raise fry in a DT, not sure where to even begin>

I had an idea to put the eggs/fry in a long tube sock, maybe black cloth or something, with wiring inside to keep it from collapsing, and a lid to keep light out. <interesting thought, my only thought is that there would be way too many clowns in such a small area to keep up with a dense population of rotifers, would require hourly feedings I would think> Clowns eat rotifers first, then switch to frozen mysis shrimp, right? <I go from live rotifers to Otohime, a lot of people recommend live rotifers to live brine shrimp then to Otohime. Too many variables for me with feeding live brine> Once they got large enough I could move them to my QT to grow out. <nothing says you couldn't try your idea, sounds very creative but I just went with what works and then made my own mods as I have progressed>

Or maybe I should just convert my QT from the start... <LOL>

When you say he is all black is he all black like a midnight clownfish or black and white like a darwin? Doesn't matter, just curious what you have.

After reading this thread, I'm a bit more informed. My clown is not midnight, its just a Darwin. What I meant by "all black" was that it doesn't have that unsightly brown-orange face. I heard that the juveniles grow out of that and eventually become all black, but I've seen a few big ugly clowns and I didn't want to risk it. I bought mine solid black & white from the start, and he isn't that big, maybe an inch and a half, two inches.

He is a misbar on one side and pretty much normal on the other. I guess that makes him technically a misbar. I really like him. His female is a snowflake with bold black lines outlining her white stripes, with some interesting blue-ish lines between her whites and the black borders.

[Mr Cob]

 

 

I had an idea to put the eggs/fry in a long tube sock, maybe black cloth or something, with wiring inside to keep it from collapsing, and a lid to keep light out.

i don't she, or her fiancée, may have have really big feet. 

Lol, I didn't mean literally, a sock. I meant, like, a wind-sock. A DIY sock, if you will. =) 

Lol, yeah, I got what you meant, I was thinking along the lines of micron filter socks.

Sent from my HTC VIVID using Tapatalk

[ChaosFyre]

I thought some more about it. What size is your little fry tank which they hatch in? I could probably come up with a black fiber "cage" exactly that size and hang it in my sump or tank. Then the fry would benefit from the extra filtration and still be in peaceful darkness. The problem would be collecting the eggs before they hatch and putting them in there without damaging them. My friend's clowns lay eggs fine in the display tank, they hatch but either get eaten or starve.

Maybe a turkey baster could spot-pick the eggs up gently. Otherwise you'd have to get the clowns to lay in a pot or on a removable rock in the DT somehow.

[Mr Cob]

Pair number 2 just laid. Half onyx misbar x black ice snowflake.

Pretty big nest too. This is their first nest with me but they have been laying for years. I will probably pull this nest.

I shot some video that I will upload later.

Sent from my HTC VIVID using Tapatalk