Teresa Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I'm just curious. I know I've switched over to aio systems or canister filtration, but I don't think I know why. Why don't we use HOB filters for marine setups? One reason I'm asking is because I recently purchased this filter for my freshwater planted aquarium and I love it! (http://www.drsfoster...29&pcatid=16729) It took care of the surface scum in no time. I took out the first clamshell and there was enough room for me to put a small bag of chemi pure. Now I'm thinking of purchasing one of the larger sizes for my biocube. I just finished taking out the false wall yesterday and I love the amount of room that's in the tank. However, surface scum is already starting to accumulate. There's enough room for me to put chemipure or purigen on each side. I could probably also fit polyfiber into one of the clamshells as well. I was debating about having it pump my API Nexx filter (output of Nexx leads into HOB), but I'm thinking I might use this as my only means of filtration. Thoughts? Ideas? Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefninja Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I'm curious about this, as well. I have HOB filters on my two smaller tanks with no problems, so curious as to why they aren't used typically, and what problems I may expect to see with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bimmerzs Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I've seen many smaller reef tanks as well as reef tanks up to 75G tanks use HOB filter's sucessfully. There are ways to mod them into fuges etc., one drawback is the smaller volume of water that they can hold/process however you can impliment purigen or similar types of filter media to make it very functional and effective. You do want to have adequate LR in the tank, maintain a reasonable bioload and make sure to have a good waterchange schedule. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbnj Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 You can use them....they just don't do much in terms of filtration. Freshwater fish can tolerate poorer water conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+KimP Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I think they are great for running things like carbon when you don't have a sump. If you have a sump though, I don't see a use for them. I sure got use out of mine on my old sump-less tank! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+etannert Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mFrame Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 I think they are great for running things like carbon when you don't have a sump. If you have a sump though, I don't see a use for them. I sure got use out of mine on my old sump-less tank! Did the same when I had my original 29g and stand without room for a sump. In that tank it provided additional flow, physical filtration, place for some phosorb, and used the middle chamber for rubble and some chaeto to sustain a pod population. On larger tanks a dedicated sump is just much more efficient. I did have a few water leaks from the hang on back unit which is why a lot of people don't like them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 I use HOB or cannistar on all my lagoon and reef tanks. I have the filter model that you have linked on first post. I have the largest model. I found the surface skimming feature noisey. I use it without the surface skimmer feature. I find that the return water from HOB provides enough vertical shear to circulate scum from the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teresa Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 Thanks for all the feedback. I was going to add a protein skimmer to the biocube, but the pump on the protein simmer is broken so it's going back to the store. I only had two clown fish in the biocube. I say had, cause one died the night after I removed the false back wall. I think there was just too much gunk built up in the back compartments and the nitrates went through the roof. I just did a water change and switched out the media in the API Nexx Canister for two new bags of chemi-pure, one bag of seachem and polyfiber. I also changed the internal pump to stir up the surface of the water. To be honest, I'm not really sure what to do. The tank is in my bedroom, so I don't really want the noise of a sump (or expense at this point). The HOB seemed like a cheap way to skim the surface. I can probably rig the HOB to draw water from the API Nexx canister so the water goes through the canister first, then through the HOB. Or am I really just wasting money and need to go in for a sump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 You do not need a sump on such a small tank. To get rid of surface scum requires sufficient aggitation at the surface or a surface skimmer. People tell me that they have eliminated surface skimmer noise by minute adjustment tweaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua-Dome Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 You can use them....they just don't do much in terms of filtration. Freshwater fish can tolerate poorer water conditions. ???? A filter is a filter is a filter. ALL "filters", whether they contain mechanical, chemical, and/or biological filtration, provide filtration for a approximated gallonage, at a moderate stocking level. In many instances under 100 gallons a hang on or two is sufficient. This is NOT to say that they provide an adequate flow rate for the tank, but that they contain the capacity to manage certain parameters in a given size tank for a certain maintenance interval. Nobody wants to have 10 hang on filters on a 300g (a large sump does the job more neatly), but to say that hang ons don't provide filtration is..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbnj Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 You quote me and then say something I never said. Where did I say that hangons don't provide filtration? I said the don't do much. Trickling some water over a few ounces of carbon is not much of a filter......a filter is NOT a filter is NOT a filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+etannert Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 The primary filter in all of our tanks is the bio filter provided by our live rock and live sand. Protein skimmers are another form of filtration, as are various reactors, floss, filter socks, etc. HOB filters offer the option to run floss, carbon, GFO, etc. on sumpless/reactor-less tanks. While a protein skimmer in tandem with this would certainly be recommended, claiming that a HOB can't run a 20-30g reef tank just fine is ill-informed. I actually have less filtration in my Solana 34g... I run a Tunze 9002 protein skimmer and I have a bag each of carbon and GFO sitting passively in the back chamber. I don't even have floss in my set-up. I grow everything from softies to sps just fine with this set up. I'd be curious to know what type of filter you'd recommend instead. Sumps don't automatically create filtration in and of themselves; they simply allow for greater water volume and for the hiding of reactors etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 People typically use HOB filters and skimmers on smaller tanks because they don't have sumps. One of the most compelling reasons to have a sump is to *hide* the equipment so that you don't see it when viewing the aquarium. The absence of wires and things help make the tank more natural, which is the reason we have them in the first place! Another reason people don't use HOB filters on tanks is because their effectiveness to siphon waste diminishes the longer the tank is. The size and suction of the removal tube is insufficient to capture a large amount of waste. Also, reef tanks have a lot of dissolved organic materials on the surface that is missed when you submerge the removal tube. Overflows are often 6+ inches so they capture more waste and remove organic waste on the surface. The act of overflowing itself allows for greater gas exchange that you can't get with a cannister filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 +1 to ethannert and Shascha. I operate 150G tanks without protein skimmers or surface overflows. If I had to pick the single most effective component in reef system design, I would select surface overflow skimmer. I have no real need for a protein skimmer. The only thing that protein skimming does for me is to raise redox values. I accomplish that much cheaper than with a protein skimmer. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbnj Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 You can maintain a saltwater tank with just liverock and an airstone, that doesn't mean it's the best method. The OP asked why people don't commonly use HOB filters and I gave my opinion...that's all. I didn't tell him/her or anyone esle to not use HOBs. To each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbnj Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 ....claiming that a HOB can't run a 20-30g reef tank just fine is ill-informed. ....and where in this thread was this ever said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 You can maintain a saltwater tank with just liverock and an airstone, that doesn't mean it's the best method. The OP asked why people don't commonly use HOB filters and I gave my opinion...that's all. I didn't tell him/her or anyone esle to not use HOBs. To each their own. I think that the best method for reef keeping is what a person choose to use, if it is successful for them. I like discussions in which people give reasons for their choices. I can always learn something new. If their reasoning is flawed and if they are able to receive advice, then I give it. If it is not received well, I do not get my feelings hurt or angry. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbnj Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 I agree with you, Patrick. If someone doesn't agree with me, that's fine with me. This hobby has more opinions that species of marine life. I like to give and take feedback and I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but twice here people claimed I said something that I didn't just to try and validate their points....silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+etannert Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 You have yet to suggest an alternative method of filtration for the OP. What do you think would be better in this situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 One of the nicest anemoines I've ever seen was in a 75 gallon with a penguin 400 biowheel and a two bulb shop light. It was a beautiful rich brown with a bright white stripe running down each tenticle onto the oral disc and looked like it was close to 20 - 22 inches across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbnj Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 You have yet to suggest an alternative method of filtration for the OP. What do you think would be better in this situation? If I was setting-up a 20-30g tank with no sump, I'd use a HOB protein skimmer, a BRS dual reactor with carbon/GFO, and liverock. ....again, just my opinion, not claiming this is the best/only way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teresa Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 I love this discussion. It really helps to clear the air of some assumptions I think we make based on what we see. I haven't fully decided that I want to go with an HOB, but I do know that surface skimming has made a huge difference on all of my tanks in the past. Lots of great ideas. Except Victoly - I have no idea what that picture is about. Can you explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 It's a joke. The eco-aqualizer was a snake oil piece of garbage that for some inexplicable reason is still in production. http://www.rexgrigg.com/debunked.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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