Refugium Sumps

[firefly]

What is the consensus on Live Rock and Sand in the sump w/ Refugium???? I've heard of w/ and W/O. I currently do not have LR or sand and as I posted on another topic have not seen good growth from my Chaeto, my levels are good though. If you run sand and LR what type of cleaning in the sump do you do? I hope this makes sense.......and while I'm at it I want to thank everyone on this forum. The folks I've met and/or talked to have been extremely friendly and helpful.

[Zarathustra2]

This is really as complicated, if not more, than asking about sand in the main tank.

I personally think that the refugium is a great place for a Remote Deep Sand Bed along with live rock and various types of Macro Algae. You do not need these for a successful refugium. I have seen a good number that just use a nice block of chaeto as a vegetative filter and leave it at that. Each feature gives you something in addition though.

A DSB is really focused on providing an hypo- to anoxic region (low to no oxygen) for denitrating bacteria to convert Nitrates into nitrogen gas. If implemented incorrectly though you end up with a huge nitrate sink that can easily produce hydrogen sulfide. DSBs are also good for producing small zooplankton, or if a rubble layer is added, small shrimps in a cryptic zone. A DSB also provides a place to plant rooting macroalgae such as mermaids fans or mermans shaving brush. There is a lot of debate over the use of DSBs and while i am a huge proponent I will quickly say that one needs to do A LOT of research to implement correctly. (Shane, you are welcome to chime in here )

Live rock in a refugium gives you added live rock benefits without cluttering up your main display. It also makes for an easy build for a cryptic zone. (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=544) You are usually shooting for some extra biological filtration but also for a lot of plankton production with live rock in the refugium.

You do not want to disturb your deep sand bed or those regions that you worked so hard to make anoxic will get a blast of oxygen, killing off millions of bacteria. Generally with a DSB type refugium you have the same level of detrivores that you have in your main tank. You may even want more as the lower flow rate can trap food particles and create nutrient sinks. In a way this is good as you can keep a lot of things like bristleworms, hydroids, aptasia, peanut worms, medusa worms ect that people don't neccisarrily want in the display tank but that make great animal filters. Also the extra "trapped" food becomes food for your macro before getting a chance to get in your display tank.

[muddybluewater]

What Z said.

I run mine BB for cleaning purposes, that way I don't have to worry about disturbing DSB.

[subsea]

I am going to go with Zara. Excellant post.

While I value the exchange of ideas on these sites, things should be taken with a skeptical mind. Because there is more than one way to be successful with a reef tank, do not flip flop on your methods. Find a method that makes sense to you and go for it. If none of it makes since, stay out of the hobby. Succesful tanks, as a rule, are not an accident. There is science behind the madness. A good book on the science is the last one put out by Julian Sprung. Check it out.

Addicted this hobby.

Pat Castille

[Zarathustra2]

+1 for subsea here. The way i see it there is a gradient where on one end you have the berlin system. Bare bottom, big skimmer, big media reactor, little feeding, sterile water. On the other end you have the Garf or Steve Tyree style natural reef. Less or no skimming, lots of nutrient recycling through a big refugium with a Deep Sand bed and plankton generation, perhaps a low flow cryptic zone. Both extremes and many points in between work so you have to find your own style of reefkeeping. For me, I find the creation of a full food chain with huge amounts of biodiversity a big part of the fun of reefkeeping. I get very happy finding different species of bristleworms, amphipods, copepods ect in my tank and seeing how they interplay is just a joy. So I am pretty far on the line to the natural side of reefkeeping.

Long story short, do a lot of reading. Find someone who you think would be a good mentor. Copy thier style of reefkeeping for a while. Once you have the basics down start branching out and experimenting with your own style. But always, always do your research. Then do some more research.

[firefly]

Thanks for your responses..... Zara I agree w/ the spectrum, you can probably find someone to stand behind every single system out there. I already have a deeper bed in my tank and can see the benefits of it and LR in the sump, but it just seems like an entire other tank to have to support. I think I will put a sand bed in my sump though, about how deep is the average????

[Zarathustra2]

3" is an absolute minimum for a DSB and generally 4" is considered the lowest you want to go if you are using sugar fine sand. Below 3" of sand and you don't really get the benifits of a DSB while adding a big nutrient sink in your tank. The reason for the extra inch is to give you some wiggle room as the sand will dissolve in an amazingly fast time. Up to an inch in 6 months depending on your PH. You can go deeper and many people report increased benefits going up to 12" but I really think anything more than 8" is just overkill and you are really getting any benefit you could get at 6".

Make sure you get a good set of critters for your DSB. Bristle worms, peanut worms, sand snails ect are all really needed for a healthy DSB or (again) it just becomes a big nutrient sink. Beware of sand sifting starfish, gobies, cucumbers... really anything that sifts through sand in your DSB as they will strip it of all the life that makes your DSB really work.

http://wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm has Anthony Calfo regarding Deep Sand Beds and is a great place to start your research.

[firefly]

Thanks Zara, sorry so slow to respond to my own thread, been under the weather.

[mhart032]

I used mud in my fuge i have about 1 1/2g of mud covered with about an inch of sand. when i setup my fuge this was what was suggested by John at Reef Cleaners. he said something about the mud being better for growing bacteria then sand, but you needed the sand on top to hold the mud and filter the the saltwater from the mud. the nutrients in the mud are better for the fuge and you have more directions for different types of biological filtration in the long run. (he also suggested mangroves witch i haven't got yet).

[Zarathustra2]

I plan on going the mud route myself and am even getting the mud from the same place.

My understanding is that you can develope a anoxic environment with a lot less depth so get much better nitrate reduction. Heck, the entire "miracle mud" line is based on the principle.

[overkill]

I plan on going the mud route myself and am even getting the mud from the same place.

My understanding is that you can develope a anoxic environment with a lot less depth so get much better nitrate reduction. Heck, the entire "miracle mud" line is based on the principle.

dont get flatworms or red bugs while using mud youll never get rid of them till you change out your mud

[reefman]

"I plan on going the mud route myself and am even getting the mud from the same place."

Z,

Where were you going to get the mud from, ReefCleaners?

Stephen

[caferacermike]

Make sure everyone knows that this is not "backyard" mud.

[Zarathustra2]

Good point CRMike. We are talking about mineral mud here. It is reefcleaners version of "Miracle Mud" and is a mud made out of very fine arrogonite sand. Think the gunk at the bottom of a live rock tank that hasn't been cleaned for a long time but thicker.

[Kkiel02]

I agree with all said above but the placement of the deep sand bed. I have always been told that dsb should have high flow to get more water through the anerobic regions to help denitrify and all that good stuff. In my new tank I plan to put the dsb in the sump and go bb or no sand in the fuge. My fuge will have such a slow flow going through it that a dsb would not work to it's full potential.

[Zarathustra2]

I agree with all said above but the placement of the deep sand bed. I have always been told that dsb should have high flow to get more water through the anerobic regions to help denitrify and all that good stuff. In my new tank I plan to put the dsb in the sump and go bb or no sand in the fuge. My fuge will have such a slow flow going through it that a dsb would not work to it's full potential.

Way to fix that would be to have a powerhead in the fuge. That way you get both the benefits of "contact time" along with the flow needed to keep most macro happy and to run a DSB.

[subsea]

I agree with all said above but the placement of the deep sand bed. I have always been told that dsb should have high flow to get more water through the anerobic regions to help denitrify and all that good stuff. In my new tank I plan to put the dsb in the sump and go bb or no sand in the fuge. My fuge will have such a slow flow going through it that a dsb would not work to it's full potential.

Hey San Marqus,

In the early spring, Anthony Calfo was in San Marcus for MAST. If you didnot go to his talk on natural reefkeeping shame on you. The book which he co-authored with Robert Fenner, Reef Invertebrates is a must read for vital information on captive reef keeping. Anthony also was a big proponnant of remote deep sand beds. It seems as if your husbandry idea of high flow would have been discribing RDSB, Be careful not to confuse the two techniques. Anthony is also a big proponnant of vegatable filter combined with DSB.

Have a bodacious day. By the way, I am about 20 minutes from San Marcus near the Salt Lick.

Keep the peace, spread the Faith.

Regards,

Pat Castille

[Kkiel02]

I went to tmac and this is where I go most of the info I posted earlier. I wish I could have talked a little more about this with him. I don't know if you went to pings presentation on fuges but this is where he talked about testing with the dyes to see how quickly water would got through the dsb with different flows. The powerhead could work but then the flow in the fuge also increases. Don't get me wrong I think that it is a good idea I'm just saying that if it could be incorporated in the sump(higher flow) I think it would maximize efficiency of the dsb. I plan on doing a rubble/macro fuge and a dsb in the sump with my 180 if the sump will allow it. If not maybe a rdsb. But either way I will keep y'all posted on how it works out.

[subsea]

The point for increased flow in RDSB was NNR with no setling of detrius. The mud refugiums like to accummulate detrius because it becomes more mud. The term mutriant sink is very deceptive. I prefer nutriant recycling and nutriant export. It is really all about dynamic equilibrium and energy balance. One out growth of Einstien's Therory of Relativity is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The same applies to nutriants. Hence, nutriant balance. Nutriants in equals nutriants out. Between those two sides of the equation is nutriant cycling: macroalgae growth, fish eat macro, bugs eat micro, bugs reproduce, fish eat bugs, coral eat bugs fish grow, coral growths, worms grow, worms multiply. I think you get the idea. There are many different nutriant paths and the more diversity the better. I have just described my take on "natural reefkeeping.

Stay cool.

Pat

[reefman]

Z,

I went to the reefcleaners site to check on their mud, but I'm not seeing any there (just Florida live rock). Have they quite selling it, or is it seasonal or something?

Stephen

[mhart032]

you have to check back, they dont always have the same product all the time. they run out of stuff but they will have it with in a couple days again..

[Zarathustra2]

Reef cleaners just recently discontinued it but I asked him and he still has a tank left of the good stuff so I will be ordering that. If you want in let me know. Its 25$ for 10 #. Much much cheaper than the competition.

[Zarathustra2]

woops. Double post.

[mhart032]

I have seen people useing caribsea mineral mud and they like the results from it. it comes by the gal. i was going to use it before i ordered from RC.

[subsea]

May I suggest you look at Gulf Coast EcoSystem http://www.live-plants.com/. Even though the service and site information are great at Reef Cleaners and John Malone is knowleable, I think you will be impressed with EcoSystems product line.

Pat