Rjohn Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I have seen the designation FOWLR which is defined as Fish Only With Live Rock. My question is: won't any rock become live after a certain amount of time? What am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckin Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I think that the focus is on fish, with maybe no corals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill B Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I have seen the designation FOWLR which is defined as Fish Only With Live Rock. My question is: won't any rock become live after a certain amount of time? What am I missing? Live Rock? I thought that was Lava Rock. That's what I put in all of my canister filters to cultivate biobugs. But to your point, I have noticed the same thing. Frankly I think it is partially an older term. It seems to me that some in SW still consider Live Rock the Holy Grail of 'equipment', whereas they don't 'advertise' FOWDSB or FOWWD or FOWR or FOWCF or ...., well you get my point. I suppose if I had bought 100# of LR at 8.99 I would want to make sure everyone knows I have it also I know you know it, but yes, beneficial bacteria grows on all surface areas. I have also wondered why they call it 'Live Rock' when it is dry and dead?? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbnj Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I have seen the designation FOWLR which is defined as Fish Only With Live Rock. My question is: won't any rock become live after a certain amount of time? What am I missing? Eventually, yes, but until it does, it's not live rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rjohn Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 OK so how do I start the cultures growing on what is really just limestone rock I dug out of a hillside. It has been in my tank for about 3 years or more. Is it live or not? It is green and red with algae of some sort but how do I tell? What is the (to use possibly out-dated terminology) litmus test? I have added various corals attached to pieces of rubble with purple algae I assumed was coraline. Would they have spread the bacteria that makes my rock live? (It's ALIVE! It's ALIVE! Igor - close the switches.) I guess I am confused by all of the reading I have done. There are so many many opinions and so many seem to contradict each other. All I know is I am not really very happy with my tank. It doesn't look like the others I have seen at the various meetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) OK so how do I start the cultures growing on what is really just limestone rock I dug out of a hillside. It has been in my tank for about 3 years or more. Is it live or not? It is green and red with algae of some sort but how do I tell? What is the (to use possibly out-dated terminology) litmus test? I have added various corals attached to pieces of rubble with purple algae I assumed was coraline. Would they have spread the bacteria that makes my rock live? (It's ALIVE! It's ALIVE! Igor - close the switches.) I guess I am confused by all of the reading I have done. There are so many many opinions and so many seem to contradict each other. All I know is I am not really very happy with my tank. It doesn't look like the others I have seen at the various meetings. Howsabout some backround on your tank? Some idea of what youre working with would help.. What you have is probably live-ish, Texas holey rock isnt the best for filtration because of its limited area and weight. Really need more info... Edited June 25, 2009 by JimD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Limestone really isn't that great for a reef set up. It makes a good base rock to support you more expensive rock. Limestone has about only one good quality, being that it is made of calcium it can help buffer a tank keeping the PH high and leeching some trace amounts of calcium into the tank. The only way to truly make it "live" would be to introduce some quality live rock into the system to help propagate the living organisms that come on the ocean rock into your system. Otherwise you just have surface area with bacteria on it. You are missing out on all the beneficial worms and other waste eating critters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesL Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I think Truckin hit the nail on the head with his definition of FOWLR. The goal is to keep fish, and not corals. The "live rock" is used for hiding places and landscaping. In FOWLR tanks you can get away with using plain old fluorescent light fixtures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhart032 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I dont think limestone is porce enough to carry bacterias that it needs to become live. if you take notice to "live dead rock" you can see how porce it is, even people that make their own live rock via concrete and styrafome and shells still have problems because it has to be perfect to make it live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhart032 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Correction, i ment morter, not concrete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhart032 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Here is what im talking about as porce and man made. this rock was done espcialy well a frind of mine made this rock with morter,reef sand,oyster shells. he cured it for 6 weeks and it colored up very nicely in about 4 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rjohn Posted June 27, 2009 Author Share Posted June 27, 2009 Thanks everyone. I am convinced I need to re-seascape my tank. I have been thinking about it for a while but now I am certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhart032 Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 If you are looking for live rock or base rock, check out epic reef for rock, i have seen some if it in reef_pugs tank and it is super nice. im heading their tomorrow to grab me a few lbs. and its the best price i have seen for either live or dead. P.S their one of our sponsors and their off braker and 35 Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill B Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Thanks everyone. I am convinced I need to re-seascape my tank. I have been thinking about it for a while but now I am certain. Ric I'm gonna be really surprised if this is your 'problem' at this point. If you are not having any ammonia spikes you're probably fine. Yes coral based rock is more porous and is better for culturing bacteria. However it also 'works' much better when it is getting a steady flow of oxygen which most tanks do not, except in their sump. If you are going to add perhaps you should buy coral based rock. Definitely do not just take out a bunch of your current rock. It does have cultures on it and removing lots could cause you to go into a very detrimental new cycle. If you have even been to Mike Del Gado's, all of his aquascape now, he got from his back yard. He has bunches and bunches of coral and fish and apparently it's adequate for him. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhart032 Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I have done alittle more research on the limestone, the only things that i found that were concerns were leeching because of the high silica in the form of chert or flint, as well as varying amounts of clay, silt and sand as dissemination's. the only thing that seems like that mite be a bad thing would be the fact that it could wreck the PH levels because of all the calcite in the rock. also the metals that may be in the rock. i have ran accross some things as far as it not being porce enough to give proper filtration, many of people have used it for tanks from what i have found. I do agree with Bill B about tanking to much rock out and throwing your tank into a new cycle. that could be very bad. if you plan to remove alot of rock out i believe i would try to get some from an a established tank that has all the bacteria and culturs already in place. or i suggest cycleing the new rock before adding it to the tank. how much limestone do you have in your setup? can you tank a photo and let us see what your looking at? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhart032 Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I was looking through some past threads in the Reef Keeping section and i found this post by Prof from Epic Reef. this mite help some ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ If you want cheap base rock I can sell you some Texas 'holey' rock that has been cleaned and used in saltwater tanks. It is not as porous as LR/dead coral rock but it is fine to have in your tank. For the DIY: Texas limestone is fine to use in your tank. If you find a piece that you want to use check for a couple of things. If it is very red/orange it contains a higher amount of iron. If it is chalky (easily rubs off white on your fingers) it will break down quicker in your tank. I would not reccomend using limestone with either of these characteristics. To clean and prep the rock for use: Wash completely with the garden hose or power washer. Scrub with a hard bristle rock. Soak in a bleach** solution (5-10%) for a couple of days. Use a powerhead to keep the water moving around the rocks. Rinse and wash agian with the hose. Let dry completly. Soak the rock in a saltwater solution just like curing LR. Run a powerhead, make water changes if you want, and the longer the better. Add it to your tank. **Bleach breaks down quickly when exposed to air. That is why they use it to treat drinking water. Dave ____________________________________________________________________________________ Again this is from another Thread... Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barderer Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) Your limestone rock is "live" rock in the sense that it is a surface that is hosting bacteria. Which is the prime function of "live" rock. Its all about surface area. The reason coral based rock is better is because it has tons of little holes in it, thereby increasing the total surface area available for colonization. Also, different types of bacteria thrive under the various surfaces of the rock. Some prefer the conditions deep inside the rock. e.g. aerobic and anaerobic nitrifying bacteria. Coral based rock is also better in a reef system because it is made up of aragonite which is a less mature form of limestone. Aragonite has the same chemical formula as calcium carbonate but a different geometric arrangement of its elements. Aragonite dissolves at a higher pH which is why it is considered better in a tank than calcium carbonate (limestone). But this is primarily only a concern for reef systems. So long and sort of it is your texas limestone is the perfectly fine for a FOWLR system as it is alive and does serve the structure function. Its just not as "alive" as a aragonite rock. If you wanted to make it better, you could drill small holes in it, increasing total surface area. Nick Edited June 27, 2009 by barderer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 "Porous" Sorry but it's been killing me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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