subsea Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Learn patience at this point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Is it weird that I have Ammonia and Nitrate and no Nitrite? Isn't Ammonia broken down into Nitrite which in turn is broken down to Nitrate? I've had it before. It was weird. Took me a while to catch it because I wasn't check nitrates since I figured nitrites would come first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Very good advice. I'm just wondering if my tank is cycling itself with the used water, live rock and cheato I put in or if I need to put some shrimp in there to get it going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Very good advice. I'm just wondering if my tank is cycling itself with the used water, live rock and cheato I put in or if I need to put some shrimp in there to get it going? If you are reading NH4, you don't need to add anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Now we wait!... In yall's opinion do you think that I can start with cleaners once levels reach normal or is there another "hidden cycle" afterwords? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 The cleaners will starve until the tank has some micro algae to eat. You will see the micro, then add the cleaners. The tank will have cycles for a year or longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 No need to add cleaners until it get dirty. Do you have anything growing in there that needs to be cleaned (algae, poop, grunge..etc)? Anyway, once it's cycled you can add them. I am a bit paranoid, so I always add amonia to check my cycle before adding living things. Usually just a heavy pinch of food and check levels the next day. I had a tank toy with me for weeks once faking its test results and making me think it was cycled, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 No, its basically completely clean, besides the minute amount of detrius brought with bluemoon's used water. I just being overly eager. SO if the tank will be cycling for around a year do I need to wait that long to get fish and corals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 No, its basically completely clean, besides the minute amount of detrius brought with bluemoon's used water. I just being overly eager. SO if the tank will be cycling for around a year do I need to wait that long to get fish and corals? No. I think what he means is it will be stabilizing over the year. Like in freshwater, the initial cycle takes about a month. Shortened by various factors like adding rock from established tanks. How did you get your amonia in the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 I guess just using the already cycled water that already had decaying matter, plus he gave me the cheato that can add to the decaying organics a little I guess; and the sand scoop that already had micro-organisms with the LRR Honestly I have no idea ; that was the plan in theory, but I was really surprised when I checked my the levels today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I have never tested for NH4 in over 40 years of reefing, until this last month. As a test study in biofiltration efficiency, I am adding ammonia to different test tanks. For me, it is difficult to gauge the different shades of green/yellow to get an absolute number. For what you are doing, the actual number is not as important as tracking the rise and fall of the nitrogen cycle. On the API NH4 test kit that I have, there are four colors in the range from 0-1.0 ppm. Unless your test kit is defective, if your reading is just under 1 ppm, you have ammonia. However, considering you have no higher level life forms in your tank, I suggest you add a dead shrimp to your tank. This will remove all doubt in your mind as to what is going on. It will definitely kick start the nitrogen cycle. I like using the shrimp because it is easy to remove the source of ammonia. When the ammonia numbers go up, take the shrimp out and track the rest of the nitrogen cycle. However, when the food is removed, as the bacteria populations increase, the ammonia and nitrite will decrease. If no other nutrient source is added, then the bacteria population will decrease. This is dynamic equilibrium and is the name of the game. When I said that the tank will have cycles for the first year, the reality is that it will always be cycling. I have always used mollies to cycle a tank. Once the initial cycle is complete, the mollies are very easy to catch and remove. In my case, I like them in my macro lagoons. As this hobby has gotten increasingly expensive, I got off the "yellow brick road" and choose inexpensive alternates to enjoy my addiction. The above processes take care of ammonia and nitrite. The nitrate molecule is a more complex problem. Depending on the quality of your live rock and rubble, denitrification bacteria exist in a reducing oxygen enviroment in the interior pore spaces. This is passive filtration and can be very slow. Most reefkeepers do partial water changes as a nutrient export mechanism for that reason. With a tank size of 14G that would be very easy to keep up with. Your use of Chaeto as a macro algae brings another dynamic into the equation. During lights on, macro algae will absorb ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at a very fast rate. It will also absorb carbon dioxide and give off oxygen. During lights on, the pH of your water will rise because of the decrease in carbon dioxide. Correspondingly, pH will drop when the lights go off. I do not share the common belief that the fluctuating pH is detrimental. It happens that way on every natural reef in the world. Within my reef tanks, arogonite is a natural buffering media that begins to dissolve at 8.05 pH. I consider automatic buffering and addition of trace minerals a good thing. During lights out, many successful reef tanks drop below 7.9 pH. Your number of 8.1 pH is not low. Also low salinity does not necessarily mean low pH. Salinity is a measure of total dissolved solids in the water. The pH is a relationship between those dissolved solids. Alkalinity is a measurement of the capacity of the water to resist changes in pH, thus the term buffer. Unless the Chaeto that you received was dying, it did not add organics to your water. Where did you place it in your tank and what light is on it? Enjoy the hobby. It gets as deep as you want it to. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 I have never tested for NH4 in over 40 years of reefing, until this last month. As a test study in biofiltration efficiency, I am adding ammonia to different test tanks. For me, it is difficult to gauge the different shades of green/yellow to get an absolute number. For what you are doing, the actual number is not as important as tracking the rise and fall of the nitrogen cycle. On the API NH4 test kit that I have, there are four colors in the range from 0-1.0 ppm. Unless your test kit is defective, if your reading is just under 1 ppm, you have ammonia. However, considering you have no higher level life forms in your tank, I suggest you add a dead shrimp to your tank. This will remove all doubt in your mind as to what is going on. It will definitely kick start the nitrogen cycle. I like using the shrimp because it is easy to remove the source of ammonia. When the ammonia numbers go up, take the shrimp out and track the rest of the nitrogen cycle. However, when the food is removed, as the bacteria populations increase, the ammonia and nitrite will decrease. If no other nutrient source is added, then the bacteria population will decrease. This is dynamic equilibrium and is the name of the game. When I said that the tank will have cycles for the first year, the reality is that it will always be cycling. I have always used mollies to cycle a tank. Once the initial cycle is complete, the mollies are very easy to catch and remove. In my case, I like them in my macro lagoons. As this hobby has gotten increasingly expensive, I got off the "yellow brick road" and choose inexpensive alternates to enjoy my addiction. The above processes take care of ammonia and nitrite. The nitrate molecule is a more complex problem. Depending on the quality of your live rock and rubble, denitrification bacteria exist in a reducing oxygen enviroment in the interior pore spaces. This is passive filtration and can be very slow. Most reefkeepers do partial water changes as a nutrient export mechanism for that reason. With a tank size of 14G that would be very easy to keep up with. Your use of Chaeto as a macro algae brings another dynamic into the equation. During lights on, macro algae will absorb ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at a very fast rate. It will also absorb carbon dioxide and give off oxygen. During lights on, the pH of your water will rise because of the decrease in carbon dioxide. Correspondingly, pH will drop when the lights go off. I do not share the common belief that the fluctuating pH is detrimental. It happens that way on every natural reef in the world. Within my reef tanks, arogonite is a natural buffering media that begins to dissolve at 8.05 pH. I consider automatic buffering and addition of trace minerals a good thing. During lights out, many successful reef tanks drop below 7.9 pH. Your number of 8.1 pH is not low. Also low salinity does not necessarily mean low pH. Salinity is a measure of total dissolved solids in the water. The pH is a relationship between those dissolved solids. Alkalinity is a measurement of the capacity of the water to resist changes in pH, thus the term buffer. Unless the Chaeto that you received was dying, it did not add organics to your water. Where did you place it in your tank and what light is on it? Enjoy the hobby. It gets as deep as you want it to. Patrick It was rather broken up pieces that I allowed to float through the system and fall as it may, Some of the larger pieces I placed in holes in the DR. Basically what you are saying is as soon as my ammonia drops; put cleaners in so that my ammonia feeders don't starve? Should the shrimp be raw or cooked? And I have 2 24 W Metal Halides; CoralLife 10,000k and CoralLife Acitinic Looking into light upgrades available for the biocube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I accidentally used a cook shrimp once. I'd use raw. The cook shrimp took a while to break down and had a sort of protective coating on it. I had to break it up with a chopstick (daily). The CUC (clean up crew) you are wanting to buy does not eat amonia. It eats crap and algae. I know you're anxious, but mobility should not be added to the tank until after the initial cycle is finished. They have nothing to do yet and will not like the swings. I also left my shrimp in until it cycled and then let my CUC have it. Since it had an amonia source constantly I was confident the Cycle was complete and that my biological filter was relatively strong before adding CUC. But there are if different opinions on this part. Imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 I know that the CUC won't break down ammonia I was more thinking that they would add ammonia through urine and poo and therefore keep the MO's happy I like the idea of leaving the shrimp for them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Have this growing in a few places in the tank. Good sign?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Looks like Cyano to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Looks like Cyano to me. i'm not the right person to ask. i first thought that cyano was coraline and picked pieces off one rock to encourge it's spread to another. then i treat diatoms twice with cyano treatments and thought the product was pitiful when it didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 It looks like cynobacteria to me also. It comes in red, green and brown depending on the strains of bacteria involved. It is the best bioindicator that you have phosphate in your substrate. Inorganic or orthophosphate can be measured in the water column but organic phosphate is bound up with detritus. Do not allow cyno to cover your rocks. Blow it off with a turkey baster. If it gets thicker on the substrate, vacuum it out. You should start using a phosphate removal resin, in the event that it is in the water. As a rule, cyno tends to accumulate in low flow areas, but I have had it in high flow areas. If it continues to spread after a week of phosphate removal resin, then I would consider the use of ChemiClean. Your lights are sufficient for where you are in the hobby. I have operated reef tanks with less lighting. However, it is somewhat confusing to me with the picture that you posted of your canopy showing two power compact bulbs. Yet you say that you have two 24W metal halides. In either case, 3W per gallon is enough to operate a reef tank. While many will tell you that lights grow coral, I say that nutrients grow coral. More often than not, enthusiastic hobbiest push the limits of their system with intense lighting only to develope other problems. Learn more about the basics before you ratchet up the lights, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 It looks like cynobacteria to me also. It comes in red, green and brown depending on the strains of bacteria involved. It is the best bioindicator that you have phosphate in your substrate. Inorganic or orthophosphate can be measured in the water column but organic phosphate is bound up with detritus. Do not allow cyno to cover your rocks. Blow it off with a turkey baster. If it gets thicker on the substrate, vacuum it out. You should start using a phosphate removal resin, in the event that it is in the water. As a rule, cyno tends to accumulate in low flow areas, but I have had it in high flow areas. If it continues to spread after a week of phosphate removal resin, then I would consider the use of ChemiClean. Your lights are sufficient for where you are in the hobby. I have operated reef tanks with less lighting. However, it is somewhat confusing to me with the picture that you posted of your canopy showing two power compact bulbs. Yet you say that you have two 24W metal halides. In either case, 3W per gallon is enough to operate a reef tank. While many will tell you that lights grow coral, I say that nutrients grow coral. More often than not, enthusiastic hobbiest push the limits of their system with intense lighting only to develope other problems. Learn more about the basics before you ratchet up the lights, If I had compacts in the picture then I still do. I was misinformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Please tell me this isn't apastastia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Water readings today: PH- 7.8 (down) NH4: 2 ppm (up) NO2: n/a NO3: 3 ppm (down) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Please tell me this isn't apastastia... Aiptasia and cyno is on the rock. Where did the live rock come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 River City Aquatics. I thought the red was coralline when I bought it and I couldn't see the aiptasia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If its coralline it will be hard. If its cyno it will rub off. For large Aiptasia, I inject hydrogen peroxide using a syringe. If the rock is small, remove it from tank. I use a toothbrush dipped in hydrogen peroxide. H2O2 is a strong oxidizer and it will eat everything, be careful with it. Or you could get a Peppermint Shrimp. They are indiscriminate and they will eat polyp corals as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo59 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 If its coralline it will be hard. If its cyno it will rub off. For large Aiptasia, I inject hydrogen peroxide using a syringe. If the rock is small, remove it from tank. I use a toothbrush dipped in hydrogen peroxide. H2O2 is a strong oxidizer and it will eat everything, be careful with it. Or you could get a Peppermint Shrimp. They are indiscriminate and they will eat polyp corals as well. I have read that about the peppertmint shrimp, but I don't think my water quality can support them yet. I most likely will try a hydrogen peroxide scrub in the morning when I can stop by the store. I'm not too worried about it killing anything because of how small the piece is; I would rather not, but I would also rather not deal with an aiptasia infestation (especially before I have even started!). I guess I will scrub the other rocks that have cyno... theres alot tho... and vacuum up the cyno that is growing on the substrate. Phew. I'm off to a rough start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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