KevinB Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I need to make the leap to LEDs by the summer, and here's my plan based mostly on doing it cheaply: I plan to order the 72 LED kit from Aquastyle (bridgelux LEDs) in a 36/36 10K white and royal blue ratio. I will choose the option that includes dimmable mean well drivers that can by controlled via pot, 0-10V, or PWM. Price shipped comes to just about $250. It comes with 60 degree lenses, but I will try it with no optics first. Then I need a heatsink. I happen to have two pieces of aluminum at home, 48" long 1.75" square tubing, 1/8" wall. This stuff is pretty beefy. If I rip it in half, I have two heatsinks. Do this a couple of more times and I have the 5 strips I need. These aluminum U channel pieces will be bolted together with four bolts per joint, and a 1/2" spacer between each piece for air movement. I will rig up a hanging kit and will think about using a yo-yo kit, depends on the weight of the light. Finally, I have several sheets of 1/8" thick plexiglas that is frosted on one side. I will use standoffs to mount this in front of the LEDs to negate as much disco effect as possible, and to act as a splash guard. Total dims on the light will be around 46" long x 11" wide x 1.25-1.5" tall. Attached is my layout Comments? Suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gig 'em @ NDstructible Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Have you considered adding any other colors of LEDs in there? Since you have such a large set up I would think you should be able to blend the colors better and widen the light spectrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mFrame Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 At the least you might look at a mix of blue and royal blue instead of royal blue only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Yeah, i echo the sentiments of the previous posters. You're probably going to want some warmer spectrum colors to capture the reds/oranges/yellows. Maybe an intermingling of warmer whites (less than 10k) and a mixing in of blue. Jason Jones seems to be the expert LED bro on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 That's not a bad idea...I'm just worried about the spotlight effect of one or two reds or violets, but maybe if I do one circuit in white an the other a mix of 18 blue, 9 royal blue, 5 cyan and 5 red. I'm really hoping the frosted plexiglas helps blend things. I'm also probably going to polish the underside of the aluminum so any light reflecting off the plexiglas is reflected back down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Here's an updated sketch. Aquastyle doesn't list a blue LED as an option, only Royal blue. I've got an email in asking about its availability. Let me know if you guys think this is a good spread and ratio. 3d model soon to come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonJones Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Kevin, I echo the sentiments others have expressed. I do not think you should worry too much about spotlighting from a couple of LEDs, especially if you do not run optics (I do not think you will need them with only 18" of depth). Take a gander at the thread I put together if you haven't. Beyond the light color looking better, there are scientific reasons for using multi-colored LEDs. LED color spectrums are incredibly tight compared to metal halides and T5s. Where a 20,000k metal halide bulb may have the overall color of 20k, it also produces light across a broad range of the spectrum. LEDs do not do this. They have a very narrow spectrum they cover. By using multiple colored LEDs, we can cover a broader spectrum of light. This not only replicates natural conditions, but it also allows various forms of chlorophyll to operate at peak efficiency and to show coral color better by reflecting certain spectra. The chart below shows where on the spectrum primary and secondary photosynthesis occurs with varying chlorophyll. There is a series by Dana Riddle several years ago that goes much more in depth on this. I have been wanting to sit down and write an article synthesizing all this information, but I do not have the time right now. I have also attached the spectrum plots of a common MH versus some LEDs to show the differences. As you can see from looking at the spectral plots of Cree LEDs (all LEDs have similar narrow bands), it will take mixing multiple colors to come close to replicating the spectral plot of the Radium 20k. Also, if you have some unfrosted acrylic, it would be interesting to compare the diffuser material I have started using with the frosted acrylic. You are welcome to take as much as you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 Thanks for the info Jason, what do you guys think of the updated layout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonJones Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Here are some thoughts on the mix, I wish I knew a bit more about color mixing with bridgelux LEDs You seem to be overpowered on whites and underpowered on blues. Between the 6500 and the 10,000k, you have 45 whites. Between the Cyan, RB and V, you have 21 Blues. I would keep the cyans and violets the same and at least double the RB. I would also consider running a couple of Osram Reds that are around 660nm, versus the pinks that peak around 600nm. LED fixtures generally lack in the red department and I am not sure the pinks would help that much. In addition to the high number of whites, keep in mind that RB, C and Red mix together to form a white light. This will effectively make your fixture even more white. The fixture I just built had only 6 white leds out of 25. I considered the RB, C, and R together as white as well, moving it up to 12 white leds. With the blue channel and white channel on equally, the fixture is between 14 and 15k. The led layout looks good and nicely mixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Kevin, depending on the spectrum you want, I would personally do less white than you have and more of the blue variants, but I tend to like closer to a 20K look. I have 28 RB with 14 CW and I am amazed at how much more powerful the whites are and how they drown out the RB... I wish I had done Reds and Greens in mine and may replace some of my whites and blues with those colors in the future. But even with those desired changes I love my LEDs!!!! It was money well spent... I am not far from you as I live in CP so if you want to come check mine out you can. I also posted pics in a previous thread on LEDs, but can't remember which thread now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonJones Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Here is a post you might find interesting. This is from Blasterman on nano-reef.com. He is incredibly knowledgable on LEDs and one of the pioneers of multicolor fixtures. "Just a note that I ordered a bunch of Aquastyle LEDs because I wanted to try out the different colors and now having a spectrometer I wanted to give them a good testing. The spectrometer tests are going to be trickier than I thought, so I'm working on a test rig for that, but I did have a chance to test out their 10k, 6500k, and 4500k LEDs along with royals. Their Royals aren't too bad. Brighter than Satistronics and only a couple nanometers warmer than XT-Es. I'd still stick with XT-Es, but their Royals are workable and cheap. In terms of color, different story. While plenty bright enough I had no use for the 10Ks. Just an extreme cool-white by my eyeballs with the typical pinkish / purplish cast. They aren't actinic enough to be used by themselves, and combined with royals they are just dull in terms of coral color. 6500k seemed similiar to older XP-Es. I was hoping for more from their 4500k, and while visually they looked like Bridgelux and Cree neutrals the response over my tank was totally different. Color was anemic at 2:1, and even at 1:1 it still wasn't that good, but just OK. I'm currently running Bridgelux 402s and Cree XT-E's, and the Aquastyle 4500ks really weren't in the same class in terms of color. For instance, orange monti caps in my tank have a deep, orange 'velvet' like color under the 402's, but lose most of their color under the Aquastyle 4500ks. In fact, everything just looked dull regardless of color ratio with the Aquastyle whites. It's possible that Aquastyle's 2700ks would fix the issue, and when I have time I'll test it out, but for now I can say with 150% affirmity that the white 80 CRI and higher Cree, Bridgelux *brand*, and Rebels (avoid the ANSI versions) deliver a rather significant improvement in color over the Aquastyles. Again, a lot of this is subjective and it's possible the 2700Ks might fix the problem, but that's my opinion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 Ok so I went back and looked at the RapidLED prices, and it's only going to be $30 more for the Cree setup...I know they are better LEDs, but after hearing what the guy on nano-reef experienced, maybe it's not worth it. I'm still very concerned about spotlighting, however...If I go with the cree kit, I will be able to afford around 42 LEDs (right around $300 with drivers). Now we are talking about a lot less number of LEDs, but they are brighter. Here's hoping my plexi and running with no lenses will diffuse it enough to make everything blend. Here's the updated layout using CREE LEDs. I tried to put the reds heavier toward the back of the tank, and the whites heavier toward the middle of the tank (to compensate for the glass brace), and showcase the most desired display areas. Renders also included just to see the aesthetics of it. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I've only messed with the Cree XP-G cool whites and XP-E blue/royal blue but comparing them to Pheonix 14000K MH to visually get about the same "look" I need to use a 1/1/1 ratio. If you want a heavier duty heat sink you can get 1/8" thick aluminum channel from metal supply business like Westbrook metals in differetn widths and with different length "legs". I've used 1/8" thick X 1 1/2" wide X 1" tall at pretty much the same price per foot as stuff from home improvement stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 Thanks Tim, the aluminum is coming from my own stock, and is 1/8" tube that I will have cut in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Kevin, how far off the water will the LEDs be? Mine are only 4 inches off the surface due to my canopy. I would recommend you look at a few peoples tanks that have DIY LEDs and see what there set is and what effects it has so you can decide how to do yours. I don't know that you will need the frosted cover. You may want to do a clear cover so it doesn't cut down on your par... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 Not sure of the height yet, I'm probably going with a retractable pendant style using grow yo-yos, so any height really. I'll probably test it with no cover and add frosted plexi if necessary. If not I'll go with clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilkerfish Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Kevin, depending on the spectrum you want, I would personally do less white than you have and more of the blue variants, but I tend to like closer to a 20K look. I have 28 RB with 14 CW and I am amazed at how much more powerful the whites are and how they drown out the RB... I wish I had done Reds and Greens in mine and may replace some of my whites and blues with those colors in the future. But even with those desired changes I love my LEDs!!!! It was money well spent... I am not far from you as I live in CP so if you want to come check mine out you can. I also posted pics in a previous thread on LEDs, but can't remember which thread now... http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/21002-waterproofing-a-diy-led-kit/ on this thread is a few pictures of Woods' setup. I've seen it and it looks great! I believe his tank is 180 gallons and everything inside it seems to be doing great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAMF_Aquatics Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 over all i think you're on the right track, but of its a $30 difference up front for the best leds you can get vs. replacing them all if you're unsatisfied is really more that a $30 diff. i can't stress to people enough that even though you may save some money right now its really in your own best interest to get CREE leds for your primary lights they are not only brighter but have a better qc process. the binning is much more accurate, so achieveing a desired look is easily done when you know your colors before you build it. i make custom light fixtures for folks here in houston and have had great success putting down some serious light in beautiful spectrums. i honestly think your best bet on a 75 is going to be using xml whites if you run them up to 2.3A (meanwell 90-27 drivers) they can still be dialed back to fit your needs but can also produce tons more light for alot less money. on a 75 you'd only need 8 with no optics, from there just cluster 2-3 xt-e per white they can be pushed to just over 1A when actively cooled. and that buys you less leds to need to run, and alows more space on your heatsink for adding reds and cyans (which should be very closely placed this will avoid any blending issues.) you'd only need a pair of r/c for evey 18x18" if you add true violets don't expect a drastic change when the other lights are on as they are approching the limits of our visable spectrum. but they will add tons of par and a nice actinic kick. i know some companies that make violets have them made with 60deg built in optics which in your case works out well to help those penetrate the water.also when running violets try not to push them over 600mA they are designed to run at or below 80°C where crees run best at 85° so thats something to watch out for. also be sure to add about .5-1 tv per rb so there is enough of them there to make a difference. (my personal tank runs .5 tv per rb) i like your heatsink set up just be sure to add a few fans on top to help pull heat away as you don't have a lot of mass to hold the temps you need to actively cool the fins to mantain stability. good luch with your build. btw what modeling program are you using? it looks great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 Thanks for the great suggestions, BAMF. I did end up buying Cree's after all, just received them yesterday. My thinking in going with the XP-Gs was that I wanted to start out avoiding spotlighting issues as much as possible. My rationale was: more less powerful lights = more spread out light. Anyway, I'm sure this will be plenty of light for my needs. My violet to RB ratio is in line with what you were saying, 1:2. I'm trying to avoid adding fans altogether, the aluminum I'm using is 1/8" thick, but I could go with something thicker if it would keep fans off the light. I'll check the temps after firing it up and if it gets so high that the CREE's efficiencies go down by 10%, I'll add cooling. Attached is the "final" layout for the LEDs. The only thing I might tweak is the space between the Cyans and Reds / Red-Oranges. I might move them closer if they don't blend enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAMF_Aquatics Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 that's good I'm glad you got the Cree you'll be much happier with the output. with that many colors is tighten the clusters a good deal. it will lead to the appearance of a single point light source, killing the disco effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10gReef Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 so what does it cost to do something like this? I would have to buy everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 I spent $230 on LEDs, wiring and thermal grease. My aluminum will run around $50. I'm buying the controller/3 dimmer package from boost led for $145. So that's about $425. There will be probably another $50 in misc expenses, so I figure to come out under $500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 Obviously individual setups will be priced differently, lenses, dimmers, these extras will add to the price if you use them For what it's worth, I've yet to find a 48" fixture that's got comparable power for under $1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Update...the main fabrication is complete on the LED fixture, and I've mounted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 ...around 30 of the 42 LEDs. Here's a couple of pics showing the build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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