Thinking about rebuilding my aquarium.

[Rjohn]

I have a 72 gallon bowfront that is about 4 years old. My lighting is 216 watts of T-5. I have a bed of crushed coral 2 1/2 to 3 inches deep. I have a Tidepool II sump, like the ones they use at RCA but with the biowheel removed. I have 6 fish - Niger trigger, false precula clown, 2 green chromis, 6line wrasse, and a yellow tang. I have about a dozen or so crabs and about 50 snails. I have some corals - the pulsing xenia is taking over. The kenya trees and colt are doing ok. My zoas and palys are closed. I purchase RO water from RCA almost exclusively, occasionally from Aquatek. I make my own salt water from that. I installed an ATO a few months ago. I purchased a Vertex skimmer a couple of weeks ago and I am starting to get some dark green skimmate. I also purchased a 20gallon long sump yesterday to replace the tidepool. My problem is: my tank has NEVER looked like the ones I see at the meetings. My rocks are always either green or dark maroon with algae. I have never had any coraline algae growth at all. I am currently going through a severe briopsys/green hair outbreak. I did 3 days of darkness multiple times to no avail. I used some chemical algaecides with no apparent affect. My question is: should I break down the tank and more or less start over? I was thinking of removing all the rock and critters to a couple of temporary containers, removing half the crushed coral, clean the other half, add some live sand, and rebuilding the tank. Any ideas, thoughts, suggestions? I am on a rather strict budget.

[muddybluewater]

I would let the skimmer work for a while and see how it helps with export. Live sand is kind of a crock. It sits in a bag for months and really does not have much if anything alive in it. I think a good investment would be a Ro/Di unit. Having the ability to make your own water helps to keep up with water changes and general husbandry of your system. It is an investment that will save you money in a very short amount of time if you just figure the time and gas going to and from the stores.

[FarmerTy]

I don't think you have to start all over. I'm sure there will be a lot of opinions on what you should do to the tank that will help your decision. It would seem that you have a lot of nutrients in the tank and just recently added a form of export (the skimmer) other than water changes. I think that should help immensely. RJohn, what does your water change regiment consist of? How often? How many gallons?

I'm not so sure about the crushed coral since I have only run tanks with sand in them. Do you have macro algae in your sump? What type of salt do you use? What is your lighting schedule? Did you buy your live rock dry? When's the last time you changed out your bulbs? Xenias are prolific in nitrate rich waters (semi-dirty water) so that is an indicator of higher than normal nitrate levels, including the growth of green and maroon algae (which i've only seen the maroon algae in fish-only tanks with high nutrient load---high nitrates, insufficient lighting).

The coralline will not grow if out competed by hair algae and older bulbs tend to promote the growth of hair algae because of the change in spectrum.

I don't speak as an expert but those are my observations.

Hope it helps!

-Ty

[Rjohn]

JeeperTy, I change about 10 gallons every other week. My light regimen is actinics 10hrs, bright white 8hrs. I bought the fixture from RCA less than 6 months ago. I do not have any macro algae. I did have some chaeto in my sump for about 6 months or so but it did not seem to be helping. I also tried an algal scrubber for the same amount of time but it did not seem to be helping either. I use a variety of salts but most often I use red sea pro. My live rock was dry when I put it in 4 years ago. I have added a small amount of dry rock since then.

My parameters are:

Phosphates - 2.0

Nitrites - 0

Nitrates - 40

Salinity - 1.026

PH - 8.2

[texmexbigspring]

Do u know were ur calcium is?

[joshman1204]

Wow your phospates lookway high. You might try some gfo in a reactor to see if you can get than down

[pbnj]

Unless you plan on drying out your rocks, just "cleaning" them probably won't have the effect you desire. I think it's more importatnt that you try and find the source of your algae, otherwise you'll eventually end up right where you are now. One thing is certain: you have a source of excessive nutrients that is feeding the algae.

Have you tried vacuuming your sandbed? A 4-yr-old sandbed that has never been cleaned could contain some nasty stuff. It might be the source of your phosphates, which in turn is the source of your algae problem. Personally, I don't vacuum my sandbed, but I do stir up small sections of it right before I do a water change.

I battled some bryopsis not too long ago. I siphoned out all I could and did some constant water changes for a 2-week period (5g water changes on a 75g every 2 days for two weeks). Took care of it. I read that someone blasted their bryopsis with boiling RO water and that seemed to kill it. Don't know if that truly works, but even if it does, you'd have to be careful about nearby corals.

Avoid overfeeding your fish, especially with flake foods.

A phosphate reactor is a good investment, but it is another expense.

Edited January 20, 2010 by pbnj

[FarmerTy]

Yeah, the nitrates are pretty high, and I'm sure there is even more in your system though the uptake from the algae makes it seem less. I agree with MuddyBlue, just kick that skimmer into action for a bit and see how that helps out your system. Run it wet for awhile (more liquid skimmate, you just have to empty cup more often). Turn it off when you are feeding but kick it back up about an hour or so afterwards to remove unwanted nutrients.

I would put the chaeto back in your system if it has been removed. For a system that size, I would imagine a lot of chaeto needed. I'm talking three to four good-sized handfuls of that stuff. I found it grows best with bulbs around the 7k range (yellowish bulb) as the regular halogen doesn't do much for it. There's always someone trimming that stuff on this forum so I'm sure people would be happy to donate. Put the light on a reverse cycle from your main lights (basically have it on at night, so when your main lights are on, it's off, and vice versa).

Go with PBNJ, if you're feeding flake food, stop... and swap to pellets. If you're feeding with brine or mysis, rinse the food off before putting it in the tank. Do not put the water you defrosted the shrimp with into the tank.

Those are long-term solutions. For the immediate problem of algae, I would pull out as much as you can by hand and possibly look into getting an urchin for a bit. The blue tux urchin I had mowed that stuff down like a lawnmower. I would sell you the one I have but it's being picked up tomorrow already. With the urchin clearing out the nuisance algae, that'll allow the chaeto to start dominating in your sump instead and since it is more efficient at uptake, will eventually out compete the nuisance algae. Then afterwards, pass along the urchin to the next reefer in need of hair algae removal.

Lowering the light cycle for a couple of weeks would help too. I'd bump it down to like 4 hrs of bright white with an hour before and after of just actinics. Just keep an eye on your coral and make sure they are not suffereing too much from the shorter light cycle.

PBNJ would be on to something else there with vacuuming the substrate. I don't really do it but I don't have a large population of fish to feed either. I wouldn't do it all the time since I like believe in time, the system will balance out but maybe a good cleaning every 6 months is in order if everything is out of whack.

Give those a try and give it a little time, it took me 1 1/2 months to fully get rid of the tons of hair algae in my system after buying live rock from a FOWLR tank. But when the system did change over and the chaeto started taking over in my sump, the hair algae disappeared over one weekend. That is with weeks and weeks of pulling hair algae out every other day (nutrient export), shortening my light cycle, running the skimmer wet, a few very large water changes (50%), buying that urchin from a fellow ARCer, and the addition of 6 zebra turbo snails and a lawnmower blenny.

The urchins and snails have moved on to the next reefer in need of algae control and the lawnmower blenny was just too entertaining to get rid of. Hope the information helps you out. Would like very much to see your system after all of this passes. Let me know if you have any specific questions on what I did to remove my hair algae problem. Good luck!

-Ty

[Rjohn]

How do you rinse frozen brine? I had an urchin a while back and he was like a little bulldozer going through the tank. He overturned everything. I found zoas upside down under the rock they were attached to. He ate some of my mushrooms. I finally just put him in the trash. I'll get a few new turbos. The one I have is about large lemon sized. I have a bunch of babies growing up. I'll get some new chaeto. I am just getting frustrated.

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

Hey Ric,

No great advice, but I feel your pain. I'm basically in the same boat, err...tank?

I've got what I think might be bryopsis taking over a couple rocks and cyano decorating my crushed coral. It's very.... festive.

I've been using the DI water from RCA and I'm very happy with it. It always tests well.

I started with nitrates at 60+ and phosphates at 5+ back the end of September. The main things I have changed with my tank are:

- No more tap water, all DI now

- 10-15% water changes every week

- reduced my CC to less than 1" and saw my nitrates drop significantly (I read a lot about CC on www.wetwebmedia.com in their substrate FAQs)

- added a 10g fuge with chaeto & live rock rubble and a 20g sump w/ a chunk of live rock and a hermit that can't behave in the main tank

My chaeto is under cheap-o grow lights from Walmart! I have 2 strip lights on a reverse cycle. I've already had to thin the chaeto as it had grown so much in 2 months that it was getting compacted

- bought a good skimmer

- Have been running phosphate reducing granulated media as well as polyfilter pads

My nitrates are reading 0 (though they are not gone, no telling how much the algae is using up. At least I'm not getting high readings in addition to tons of algae now) and the phosphates are at .5.

I'm frustrated because I'm still battling all the junk even though my tank is so much healthier and my nutrient export systems are working. I'm hoping that I'm on the final leg of the nutrient battle and that within the next 6 months or so all the nuisance stuff will die off. Heck, I'd be happy if the cyano alone would just go away. The macro algae doesn't bug me so much and my little tang snacks on it all day long.

My tank was neglected before I bought it and had a lot of nutrient build up. I have yet to find a concise plan for rehabbing a reef tank where that's happened. I'm muddling through.

Hope you find a solution for your tank! If you do, please share. I too have had moments where I just want to rip everything out of mine and start over. However, it's a little on the cost prohibitive side! Replacing all the rock alone would be painful.

Liz

[Rjohn]

Thanks Liz. I was reading your topic conversation with Subsea and that got me to consider reducing my CC bed. My tank was originally designed to be just fish only. I was wondering if redoing it might help. I wasn't really planning on replacing my rock tho. I was wondering whether a PVC tube with caps on each end with attached hoses wouldn't work just a well as the $40 reactor.

[pbnj]

You could build your own reactor. You just need to make sure the water enters at the bottom and works its way up through the media.

As far as rinsing frozen food, just put the frozen cubes in a little hand-held strainer and run it under the faucet until all the ice is dissolved.

Edited January 20, 2010 by pbnj

[FarmerTy]

A simple $2 net is what I employ for rinsing off brine and mysid shrimp.

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

Is there magic to the water entering at the bottom and working it's way up through a reactor?

The baffles in my sump perfectly hold the two plastic media containers (side by side) that used to be in my big double bio-wheel filter. All the water in the tank has to flow through those baffles! Of course the water enters from the top then goes to the bottom.

Ric, read through the links on that website and if you decide to reduce your CC let me know how it works for you. I wish I knew if it was coincidence or a direct connection between the shallower CC bed and the nitrates. It sure looks nicer if nothing else.

I did remove it slowly so I didn't release too much nasty stuff into the water at once. When it was real deep I'd scoop about 1/2" worth of CC out on one side of the tank at a time being very careful not to stir it up too much. Then I'd do my water change and siphon the CC. I never had any problems with toxins being released.

I took it from a pretty deep bed.... 4-5"+ down to 1/2-1" deep right now.

I think I'm going to mix some sand into it eventually, just not sure how to do it without making a mess of the tank. Still gonna keep the bed 1"- 1 1/2" or so deep overall.

Liz

[+dapettit]

How do you rinse frozen brine?

I picked up a plastic "Sun Tea" container at Wal-Mart (the one with the spout). Cleaned it out well with white vinegar and water. I keep ro/di water in it. I put the food in a shot glass. Then put ro/di water into the glass, let it thaw then pour into a brine shrimp net. Place the net under the spout of the "Tea" maker and let the run over it until the water is clear.

Dave-

[DaJMasta]

I don't have experience with it, but from what I've read - more than 1/2" depth of crushed coral is a no-no. It traps debris very easily and doesn't have the same surface area that sand would to accomodate the beneficial bacteria. I've also seen that with almost any depth of crushed coral it's a good idea to regularly gravel vacuum it to remove the accumulated waste. From the nitrate problem, a deep sand bed may actually help, but it would be a fair amount of work and expense - even using dry sand - to fill a 75G tank with 4-6" of sand.

[Wippit]

All you wanted to know about hair algae but were afraid to ask: from Reef Central.

[Wippit]

Another bit of advice from TheMandarinFish on RC:

To beat hair algae, which I am currently in heavy combat against, I have read a *LOT* and experienced that, to beat it, you must:

1) reduce nutrients... the better skimmer you have, the less you will have. Think the largest EuroReef you can fit and afford

2) reduce phosphates... get phosphate sponge material, I think Kent makes good stuff. Run it through a cannister if you can (my next step, currently I have it in my sump in high-volume area contained in a nylon bag)

3) get an algae / lawnmower blenny... mine is obese. I'm not kidding. I think I am abusing the poor fish; he has a huuuuge gut.

4) get a zebrasoma tang... my purple and yellow and even hippo tangs go to town on this crap algae

5) set up a refugium... the more algaes that compete with hair algae, the better. Not just the coralline, but get gracilaria, sargassum, ulva, some mangrove trees, basically anything that will try to out-grow the hair algae by using the same nutrients, minerals, elements.

I used to have a veritable kelp forest of hair algae. It is at about 30% of what it once was just a month ago, and I hardly bother to remove it by hand.

Kicking off your lights won't eliminate it. Zapping phosphates, having plants compete with it, and having animals eat it will. Good luck!

[Wippit]

Another link: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-07/nftt/index.php

[Bill B]

Hey Ric

This is more my 'do as I say and not as I do' take: Generally algae needs three things to grow, heat, light and nutrients. Heat is fixed. Light you can vary to some degree but mostly in duration. Generally it seems to me corals benefit from light as much as algae does so any changes here must be temporary So the key is nutrient control.

There seem to be some tips on food that may help some. But I am voting on trapped and decaying food and waste being the big problems. I don't know but yes I would look more into the CC. It certainly makes sense, right or wrong, that stuff could work further and further down into it and decay. Even more obvious though may be your live rock. Try to arrange you rock so there are fewer places where water flow cannot carry away detritus. Also arrange you water flow so it is working it to your overflow. I have taken portions of my rockwork down from time and often find an obvious fine layer of decaying crud (Remember DAISANAID:)

Mike DelGado mentioned the huge amounts of detritus that collected down and behind his rockwork until he put a power head or two beneath it to blow it up and out a couple of times a day. When I was at Garrett's the other day I notice that he had two power heads at the back of his tank blowing straight down, presumably to dislodge any crud from accumlating there - this even though his rockwork is not densely stacked at all.

I think filter socks can be very important so when detritus is carried out of you main tank it does not go down and accumulate in your sump, which typically are not designed for optimum water flow. If you don't use them and do have macro I believe the macro can just trap bad stuff as well perhaps creating as much nitrate as it is taking up. Of course the socks need be changed out very regularly. I have heard weekly regularly. In my tank I can see obvious signs of 'decay' after just 3 or 4 days. I believe my sump would benefit greatly by a good vacuuming or cleaning but I resist because I don't want to lose my elusive pods (and some minor CUC).

I think removing algae is good because it removes another way for contaminants to get trapped. So even though removing it will not really much affect it's ability to multiply, it might be reducing nutrient levels. When using algaecide type treatments dead and dying algae cells become nutrients for other algae so vacuuming and water changes must be performed more (and wet skimming).

Remember that nitrate readings are a percentage. I grin at those who say they did a 10% water change and their nitrates went from 40-10. No, as a function of the water change, nitrates would be reduced at best by 10%. I know more about ponds and FW but generally while large water changes will by definition reduce current nitrates in your water they also more dramatically affect the 'stasis' of your water as well, often in more negative ways. This just means again that nitrate reduction is more about prevention than water changes.

Phosphate systems should help. Macro's should help. I sometimes wonder if I have enough watts in my fuge. Mechanical removal should help when maintained regularly.

At this point this is probably waaay TMI but if I was as exasperated as youI think I would:

1) Clean my fuge/sump really well.

2) Get 5 or more filter socks and change them out religiously.

3) Get some more macro and an appropriate light. I understood there are some who say run your light 24/7 to prevent sexual reproduction, if your aren't just using Cheato. Cheato only, the reverse cycle.

4) Get or make a phospate system. Honestly me I'm not sure I would add one untill I investigated the ongoing costs of running one, but that's just cheapo me. This seems like a polishing aspect.

5) Again, I don't know about the Crushed Coral, Sand Bed, Thick/Thin/DSB arguements, but I would consider reducing the depth and definitely systematically cleaning it.

6) I would definitely systematically take down portions of my rock work, vacuum out from under them, and then scrub the heck out of the algae rocks in some RO/DI water. Consider rearranging them. Consider changing or enhancing your flow some, especially towards the overflow. I think I have about 40 or 50# of rock that is now drying. Many pieces aren't really showpieces. You could systematically switch out some pieces if you wanted to, especially if you started cycling it again. I would eventually want a similar amount back but no hurry.

7) I would shoot for 10 gallon water changes once a week. 15 might be better, but again El Dinero (or is it La).

7a) After I had changed cleaned and changed out the rock and substrate and maybe even did one chemical treatment I think i would do one 40 or 50% water change, just vacuuming the heck outta everything as I did it.

8) Learn more about CUC. To me it always seemed like hermits clip algae better, but don't clean the glass and eat snails. Snails sometimes get in smaller areas and clean the glass. The bigger the snail the more work they do the more they knock over unless you putty it down. How about a cucumber or two - lettuce nudibranch or a sea slug (uggglee).

9) Buy a lawnmower Blenny or maybe a BiColor. Lawnmowers eat more but are not attractive and eventually run out of stuff to eat (hopefully) and get huge. If your Tang is not eating your algae you might want to consider catching him and trading out for something else. I had a FoxFace and Doctor Fish Tang who ate anything that was green and moved. I have a hippo tang and a different Fox Face now and ... not so much.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Bill

[afgun]

Phosban reactor? I'm planning on running a calc and phosban reactor on my tank when I finally get it set up...

[+dapettit]

Two Little Fishies make a real good and cheap Phosban reactor.

Dave-

[muddybluewater]

Bulk Reef Supply has some inexpensive models also. I have their combo carbon/gfo reactor. It works good. Just happens there is a group buy going on until Monday

[Rjohn]

Thanks Bill. I am trying to decide how radical to get with this. I have a new bigger sump (20 gallon long) to install that has an area that can be used as a refugium. I was thinking about a half gallon or so of the rubble over at Fishy Business, depending on how much he wants for it. Mark has a phosphate reactor that I can purchase and he is coming over maybe next week to give me an evaluation of what he thinks I should do. I have decided that reducing the CC bed is a good idea. I have a finicky yellow tang so I am gonna get a large blenny. Can you have more than one? The new skimmer does seem to be working but progress is slow. I keep getting the itch to do something. I keep reading "Good things slow, bad things fast" but my patience is wearing thin.

I remember reading in here about cleaning filter socks in the washer but I can't find the thread. Surely you don't wash them with Tide or All? I am not sure what the spousal unit is gonna think about me washing the socks in her machine.

[+dapettit]

I wash my sock in the washer using white vinegar. Then run them through the rinse cycle twice.