Clean up Crew

[jcheek2010]

Hey everyone! I'm getting ready to start stocking my tank and I wanna start with my clean up crew. I wanted to get your opinion on what you have in your tank/what works best for you. It's a 75gallon mixed reef Any/All livestock recommendations are welcome (not limited to CUC)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Juiceman]

Hey everyone! I'm getting ready to start stocking my tank and I wanna start with my clean up crew. I wanted to get your opinion on what you have in your tank/what works best for you. It's a 75gallon mixed reef [emoji4] Any/All livestock recommendations are welcome (not limited to CUC)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you have sand... some conchs are useful.

I try to only get snails that can turn themselves over if they fall like Trochus. And only a few crabs so they don't bicker and kill each other wasting your money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AlexMorsePremium]

I also recommend a conch.  One is probably good at 75G.  They're great at cleaning sand, interesting, and chill.

Snails: 

I'd go with ceriths and turbos, but there's a lot of variety in turbos, and they will knock things over that aren't glued/pinned down.  There's a handful of varieties of turbos, and I've not found a great source for id'ing.  There's several different shell growth patterns.

Crabs:

Scarlet hermits.  They might kill some snails to steal their shells, but seem less likely to do so than the other varieties.  Active and interesting to watch.  Will clean off hair algae.
DON'T emerald crab.  These guys are cool, and I'd love to keep one, but I've heard too many stories of them being fish killers.

Shrimp:

Get a cleaner.  My scarlet skunk is awesome.  Helps your fish stay healthier (not a lot), but does help with some pests, and tidies up wounds if there's been fighting.
Peppermint: will eat aptasia sometimes, be good scavengers otherwise

 

[mFrame]

I've never had a true emerald crab kill a fish.  They're one of my favorite small tank critters.

Tiger tail cucumber does a great job of cleaning the sand as well, but you probably won't need one until the tank is a bit older (they could starve in the meantime)

[Juiceman]

I've never had a true emerald crab kill a fish.  They're one of my favorite small tank critters.
Tiger tail cucumber does a great job of cleaning the sand as well, but you probably won't need one until the tank is a bit older (they could starve in the meantime)

Same. I've always had at least 2 emeralds... never had an issue


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Timfish]

In  my opinion there's a lot of hype about getting CUCs.  I've been very good success with just a couple sperpent/brittle stars, a couple big hermits (I like the thin strip ones from the coast) like the blue knee or orange knee, just don't get the big red and orange "Dardanus" spp.  A couple snails like conchs that burrow in the sand might be good but I don't usually use snails.  Tiger Tail cucumbers will reproduce in your tank and are a good conservation choice.

[FarmerTy]

+1 to all the advice above. I'm a big fan of tuxedo urchins to that mix. I've actually stopped keeping snails because the tuxedos are so efficient. The only snails I get now are the conchs.

[Sascha D.]

In my 300g, I have 5 Tiger Conch and 6 Mexican Turbo Snails and 2 sea cucumbers. 

Snails - The reason that I keep Mexican Turbo Snails is because they're too large for my wrasses to eat. If I didn't keep wrasses, then I would get dwarf and regular Cerith Snails. Turbo Snails and Astraea Snails cannot right themselves if they fall over and die. For that reason you have to turn them over if they fall on their backs. Many Nerite Snails are collected from land and those species will climb out of the tank as part of the natural behavior and die. Nassarius Snails are great critters, but they need a great amount of food and you should not follow "recommended" stocking levels. Normally, you'll see your Nassarius Snails decline until 1-5 are remaining and those will live for a while. Margarita Snails are cold water snails and you should not stock them in a reef tank. They will live for a while but their lifespan is greatly reduced at temps above 72 degrees. Cerith Snails have all of the benefits of other snails, will breed in the sand, and none of the negatives. 

Cucumbers - Tiger Tail and Atlantic Sea Cucumbers actually encompass multiple species commonly sold under these names. All of them are nocturnal and most of them stay fairly stationary. I've had two Tiger Tails walk into pumps over the years and it's not uncommon to find them in the overflow or sump on occasion. Atlantic Sea Cucumbers are not as pretty as other cucumbers and not commonly sold. I see mine about twice a year and I don't notice any evidence of their existence in between sightings. Based on my experience, I would only recommend the Holothuria species. IMO the best species is the pink and black Edible Sea Cucumber because they are active during the day and keep the sand bed better than other species. The Waikiki Aquarium has them in every tank. FWIW I've had four cucumbers die in my tank over the last 18 years and never had them "nuke" the other inhabitants. 

Conch - These are great sand dwelling critters that I think everyone should own. They should not be added to a tank less than 8 months old or they will starve. They also should not be added to any tank with less than 2" of sand because they won't be able to cover themselves completely. 

Stars - IMO the only stars that are a part of the CUC are Brittle Stars. They're nocturnal but they will eat anything they can reach, including detritus. Avoid Serpent Stars as they are known hunters of fish, especially the green ones. I've personally witnessed one standing on all four legs (like a stool) and wait for something to swim under it before it slammed down and wrapped it up. Sand Sifting Stars should be avoided as they greatly reduce the nitrogen capacity of the sand bed and normally starve to death within a year. 

Crabs - Crabs are tough because some people love them and others hate them. Hermit crabs will kill each other and snails to get new shells. Personally, I think they're a waste of money. Emerald Crabs and Sally's are generally a good part of the CUC, but caution should be taken with individuals as they get to 3" or larger. Arrow Crabs, Gorilla Crabs and Decorator varieties should be avoided as they will predate other inhabitants. Emerald Crabs and Sally's often get falsely accused of feeding on corals. IME 99% of the time the crab is cleaning up dead or dying coral tissue, which is the reason you bought it in the first place. However, it can also be that the crab is starving or food is limited. 

Shrimp - IMO there are no shrimp that should be considered part of the CUC. Snapping shrimp will forage for food, but care should be taken before adding them. I had one burrow under a 30" rock tower and topple the whole thing before I learned my lesson! Cleaner Shrimp, Blood Shrimp, and Peppermint Shrimp are all active predators of smaller worms, and crustaceans. Coral Banded Shrimp are known fish and invertebrate hunters. Sharon Shrimp and Mantis Shrimp are very active predators and should be avoided in a reef tank. 

[Juiceman]

+1 to all the advice above. I'm a big fan of tuxedo urchins to that mix. I've actually stopped keeping snails because the tuxedos are so efficient. The only snails I get now are the conchs.

Don't the urchins eat Cora line?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sascha D.]

Rock Boring Urchins, Pencil Urchins, and Long-Spined Urchins are known to eat coraline algae. They're also known to have a bite hard enough to scrape acryllic aquariums. 

Some wrasses eat urchins. If you don't believe me then I have two empty shells in my sump as a reminder. 

[FarmerTy]

Don't the urchins eat Cora line?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh heck yeah, and I appreciate their efforts in that. I despise coraline algae.

[Sascha D.]

Do you tuxedo's eat coraline? If mine ate it then they didn't do it very fast because it still grew on the glass. 

[mFrame]

1 hour ago, Sascha D. said:

Stars - IMO the only stars that are a part of the CUC are Brittle Stars. They're nocturnal but they will eat anything they can reach, including detritus. Avoid Serpent Stars as they are known hunters of fish, especially the green ones. I've personally witnessed one standing on all four legs (like a stool) and wait for something to swim under it before it slammed down and wrapped it up. Sand Sifting Stars should be avoided as they greatly reduce the nitrogen capacity of the sand bed and normally starve to death within a year. 

I thought "serpent star" and "brittle star" are synonymous. It's the Green Brittle Stars that are monsters and hunt fish.  I have had numerous tiger striped serpent stars, basket stars fancy serpents that have all been fine.  They've been totally reef safe and very entertaining.

The Green Brittle Star (green body, yellow thorns on legs) are fast and will eat anything they can get a hold of.  Great for a specimen tank (Timfish has several running 20+ years), but not for a mixed reef.

[FarmerTy]

Do you tuxedo's eat coraline? If mine ate it then they didn't do it very fast because it still grew on the glass. 

Yeah, maybe because mine were hungry but they would eat over a spot and the coraline was gone.

[jestep]

Maybe I'm alone here, but why add a CUC without a reason for them? They're going to starve in a matter of weeks unless you are heavily feeding the tank, enough to start growing algaes. They make sense to add when there starts being sufficient food for them but otherwise I'd wait.

The most useful IMO are astraea and trochus, they are better grazers than most other snails, but they stay small unlike turbos. Theoretically astraeas will reproduce in a home aquarium, but I've yet to see success there. Ceriths are too small to do any good. Nerits are just useless, they glide around making trails on the glass, laying eggs everywhere, then you find them dead on your floor because they won't stay in a tank. Mexican and large turbos starve to death unless there is a ton of algae.

Conchs and nesarrius do not eat algae, but they do eat food scraps and graze through a sandbed. Conchs are another with a high mortality rate in super clean aquariums. Absolutely awesome snails if you can support them.

As far as general algae utility, foxface are hands down the best IMO, the yellow and one spot stay fairly small as well. They don't tend to get super territorial like tangs.

Anyway, not trying to be super pessimistic, I just see these super CUC purchases way early in a tank's progression far too often. I even did one myself on my first tank, and lost just about everything in the first few months. I'm way more sparse on my CUC's now.

[Sascha D.]

On 1/27/2017 at 1:03 PM, mFrame said:

I thought "serpent star" and "brittle star" are synonymous. It's the Green Brittle Stars that are monsters and hunt fish.  I have had numerous tiger striped serpent stars, basket stars fancy serpents that have all been fine.  They've been totally reef safe and very entertaining.

The Green Brittle Star (green body, yellow thorns on legs) are fast and will eat anything they can get a hold of.  Great for a specimen tank (Timfish has several running 20+ years), but not for a mixed reef.

Brittle Stars and Serpent Stars are technically the same, both being ophiuroids. The difference is physical appearance and also feeding habits. Brittle Starfish have spines or spikes along their arms which help them locate detritus and food particles. Serpent Starfish are named because their arms are smooth like snakes. The arms of a Serpent Starfish help propel it faster to overcome prey. Brittle are considered omnivores and the serpents are considered carnivores. It's generally accepted that they won't hunt fish until the disk grows past 0.5" diameter, but they will eat snails, crabs, tube worms, feather dusters, and other inverts at all sizes. 

The Green Brittle Starfish that you mentioned is a monster! I had a friend keep one in a species tank and it's a surprisingly aggressive feeder. 

 

Another one to watch out for is the Red Serpent Starfish. It can also grow fairly large and actively hunts anything that it can get. 

[mFrame]

Interesting, I had a red serpent that was one of my favs.  I never saw any real aggression with it.  That said, it didn't hit the size you mentioned.

[Timfish]

I've always though of "brittle star" and "serpent star" as synonymous also but some call the ones without spines "serpents"

I love those big green Brittle Stars!   I'm dubious of their reputation for catching fish.  I've kept them with small damsels, basslets and gobies for years without problems.  IMO most anecdotal stories are them catching fish that already had a problem and they're just doing their job and disposing of a carcass (or sooon to be carcass).  Looking at how slow they move compared to fish they don't strike me as a threat.

 

 

[Good Greef]

I'm starting to hate snails and think a large part of my phosphate issues in the beginning were due to overstocking them, having some flip over and die where I cant find em.  Its insane the amount of propoganda the industry and LFS spit out about CUC recommendations, purely for revenue.

Kinda like wisdom teeth needing to be removed when patients feel no pain. Money generator.

 

[AlexMorsePremium]

Lots of snail species can right themselves if flipped.  That doesn't help with overstocking, but just add slow and watch and you'll sort that out.  I'm not sure how many I have in my 90gal display tank, 6-8 larger turbo varieties, about the same with decent sized ceriths, handful of misc, and an explosion of micro snails I didn't intentionally stock.  

The tiny guys aren't a big worry, they'll bloom and figure out their equilibrium.  Throwing a ton of larger snails in that could starve or get stuck could give you a waste spike.  Just add slow and pay attention.

[Sascha D.]

20 hours ago, Good Greef said:

I'm starting to hate snails and think a large part of my phosphate issues in the beginning were due to overstocking them, having some flip over and die where I cant find em.  Its insane the amount of propoganda the industry and LFS spit out about CUC recommendations, purely for revenue.

Kinda like wisdom teeth needing to be removed when patients feel no pain. Money generator.

 

When I first started the recommendation was 1 snail and 1 hermit per gallon. It was tough saving up $300 working for $3.15 per hour and I watched them all die one-by-one. They won't fool me twice. 

[Isaac]

3 hours ago, Sascha D. said:

When I first started the recommendation was 1 snail and 1 hermit per gallon. It was tough saving up $300 working for $3.15 per hour and I watched them all die one-by-one. They won't fool me twice. 

I use the reefcleaners.org recommendations.  I ask them to make it snail heavy instead of crabs.  crabs end up eating each other in my tank.  Even if 50% die, the price is still reasonable.  You should see my glass a couple hrs after the lights are off... its like a snail infestation *lol*  Only downside w/ that site, you get a "but more" reminder i think quarterly.  If you went snail heavy over crabs, they get annoying because you dont NEED more

[Sascha D.]

25 minutes ago, Isaac said:

I use the reefcleaners.org recommendations.  I ask them to make it snail heavy instead of crabs.  crabs end up eating each other in my tank.  Even if 50% die, the price is still reasonable.  You should see my glass a couple hrs after the lights are off... its like a snail infestation *lol*  Only downside w/ that site, you get a "but more" reminder i think quarterly.  If you went snail heavy over crabs, they get annoying because you dont NEED more

I like Reef Cleaner. The price per item is the best you'll find and there is great information on the website. The dry rock is pretty good and he'll custom pick your rocks out of his inventory. There hasn't been one recently, but there are have been several ARC group buys in the past.

[jestep]

On 2/8/2017 at 11:50 AM, Good Greef said:

I'm starting to hate snails and think a large part of my phosphate issues in the beginning were due to overstocking them, having some flip over and die where I cant find em.  Its insane the amount of propoganda the industry and LFS spit out about CUC recommendations, purely for revenue.

Kinda like wisdom teeth needing to be removed when patients feel no pain. Money generator.

 

Completely agree with the excessive CUC's. Love reef cleaners as a company, but their CUC's are about 90% more than a tank needs. I thought it was a good thing when I setup my first tank, great, ton's of snails, I'm going to have the cleanest tank out there, but quickly realized the absurdity as well as the constant nutrient battle that introducing hundreds of snails into a small tank contributes to.

[FarmerTy]

FWIW, I have 5 tuxedo urchins of various sizes, 2 Mexican turbo snails, blue linkia starfish, 1 red and black sea cucumber, and 6 conchs as my clean up crew for a 215-gallon tank.

I would like to note that I do have a ton of naturally populating mini-brittle stars, a ton of small snails that naturally reproduce in the tank, and tangs/angels that graze my rocks all day.