Struggling with keeping Coral

[+SChrisEV]

I'm getting frustrated, I really need your help!!!! For months now I've had some issues with keeping coral. Since my move (system was back up around Feb 2014) I've had issues keeping stuff alive. In the beginning it was SPS, even basic birds nest was not making it. I found that my calcium was pretty low (350), but everything else seems great, water quality wise, so I worked on bringing CA up, tried another smallish piece, and it started to die pretty quickly.

Before I moved I had pretty decent results with SPS, but always had a little higher PO4 than I wanted .06 - .08 (red sea test kit), so I figured I'd try running bio pellets to bring that down. After my first set of SPS deaths I was told that if I was running bio pellets then I needed to drop my alkalinity, I was around 9.2 dKH in Feb/March. So over a few months I was able to lower that, a bit. About three weeks ago I added another piece of SPS and so far so good. But now some of my LPS are not looking as good, as in not full extension, and I totally lost an elegance, as well as a torch, they just withered away over the course of about a week, maybe faster. I've been running tests about every two/three weeks. And the past day or two my Zoas have been small and some polyps are not even opening.

So I ran more tests last night, and found my PO4 is at 0.00

I use a Hanna Checker now, ran the test twice, and it could have been that way for the past month or so, because I did one step incorrect (stupid), I did not hold the button to set the timers, so I think it showed my last test result of 0.03. Thinking back to a couple weeks ago, I think I did the same.

My results as of last night (9/8/2014):

Phosphate/PO4 - 0.00ppm

Ca - 450 ppm

Alkalinity - 8.4 dKH

Mg - 1250ppm

Ammonia - .0 ppm

Nitrite - .0 ppm

Nitrate - 0 ppm

My Mg seems a little low, I did not rerun that test

These are my results from my last run of tests (8/23/2014):

In the below results suspect I messed up the PO4 test, doing the same thing, not setting the 3 minute timer on the hanna checker.

Phosphate/PO4 - 0.03ppm

Ca - 450 ppm

Alkalinity - 7.8 dKH

Mg - 1400ppm

Ammonia - .0 ppm

Nitrite - .0 ppm

Nitrate - 0 ppm

It's interesting that my alkalinity went up in the past couple weeks, I did do a small water changed, if you can call it that, when I was changing out my GFO and carbon, so maybe that was it. I don't usually do my pH test any longer because I have the APEX doing that. I have a range of about 8.05 - 8.30 through the day. I did manually test my pH about a month ago and found the same basic, it was a API test so no real accuracy there.

So my question is would a 0.00 PO4 cause the issues I am now seeing with my LPS and Zoas? I suspect yes to the Zoas, I've heard they like a bit "dirtier" water. But my LPS?

Also I've heard that the bio pellets can strip out too much PO4, so how do you that run pellets deal with that?

Thanks in advance!

[JamesL]

Any chance of stray voltage from a bad heater or something like that?

[Dean]

Mixed reefs can be very tricky to keep but I seem to be lucky so far. I have been pretty successful with mine going on about 9 months now. I house acro, birdsnest, millepora, montipora, styllo, pocillipora, for sps. Torch, hammer, frogspawn, chalices, and acans for lps, zoanthid, toadstool and xenia for softie all in a 65 gallon reef. I have so far been able to keep it simple. I run kalk in my ato, a 550 reactor with phosguard and carbon, and I skim pretty heavy. Using the xenia on my overflow I can tell when the system start running to clean because it starts to shrivel. The reactor and skimmer keep the water from getting to nutrient rich. I feed my fish twice a day. Anything from flakes/ pellets to Rod's and mysis. I broaadcast feed the coral with ReefRoids twice a week as well. I also perform biweekly water changes and vaccum the 2-3" sand bed while syphoning the water out. It sounds to me like your water is to clean and there aren't enough essential nutrients etc..

Is this the "right way"? I am sure plenty of reefers would say no but it has worked for me so far.

[+SChrisEV]

Any chance of stray voltage from a bad heater or something like that?

I suppose anything is possible, I don't have a way to test this. I know there have been threads about this, so I will look for those to see what I need to test.

[FarmerTy]

Biopellets are amazing at removing nitrates and less efficient at removing phosphates. I have no idea how much biopellets you are using but it can easily be overdosed. I'm pretty sure this is why your LPS and zoas aren't looking so good. Biopellets can strip your water very quickly of nutrients once it fully ramps up (typically 3-4 weeks).

You alk probably went up as a result of your SPS/LPS not growing as much anymore as their uptake has decreased. The water change added alk and your corals didn't uptake much of it.

I would pull out a lot of pellets or even shut it off if all your corals look like they are on the brink of death. Just for reference, I run from 1/4-1/2 cup of biopellets for my entire 215-gallon tank (250-260 total volume), with a heavy bioload and tons of feeding (two cubes a day, at least). The "recommended" amount is almost 4 cups for my tank size! By far way too much!

[+SChrisEV]

I feed close to daily but not heavily, I do have a couple fish that would love to get more food, blue spot jawfish for one, so I will look at feeding a bit more, and I can cutting down the amount of pellets I have in my reactor, I just don't want to do anything to fast. I don't remember how much I added, they have been in the system now for a 4/5 months, but I think it might have been close to 1/2 a cup and I only have a 92g, about 115g total water volume.

I love having a tank, but It's been frustrating, I want to stock a lot more coral, but I have been waiting to get everything well balanced, killing coral and wasting money is not much fun! Before I moved, I was able to keep pretty much everything alive, and even growing. Grrrrrr.

[Bpb]

Mixed reefs are indeed very difficult. Biopellets are a slippery slope. They did wonders for me initially, but once I added the "recommended amount" after ramping up over a couple months stuff just started to tank. STN on several acros that had been happily growing for months. Zoas all but ceased growing entirely as well as most Lps. I ended up taking them offline. I think they can be helpful, but if your nitrates hang out between 0-1 ppm and phosphate stays under 0.06 or so, I don't see the point in using them as the water is already pretty clean. I like what Ty said about using much less than the recommended doseages. I had 1.25 cups in mine. Way too aggressive. If I ever use them again I'll only use 1/4 cup tops for my 90 gallon

[Gig 'em @ NDstructible]

This may be a dumb question, but what water are you topping off with and making water changes with? RO? When was the last time you changed the RO filter membranes? I start seeing coral decline when my RO membranes get about 6 months old.

[SAM]

Don't give up. Keep at it. Do what Ty said and let your tank settle down for couple weeks. If you need test coral frags I got plenty to hook you up for free. Cheers!

[+SChrisEV]

This may be a dumb question, but what water are you topping off with and making water changes with? RO? When was the last time you changed the RO filter membranes? I start seeing coral decline when my RO membranes get about 6 months old.

Yes RO water that I make up. I have an inline TDS tester, and my output is 0 after DI stage.

[jaggedfire]

How about your skimming levels and feeding of corals? I have had trouble keeping many digis in the newer tank where as in the old, little one they thrived, even with huge pH swings.

[+SChrisEV]

Thanks for all the good info. I will cut back the amount, and maybe the flow of the bio pellets this evening, maybe even take it offline, I just hate to make to drastic of a change at once.

Don't give up. Keep at it. Do what Ty said and let your tank settle down for couple weeks. If you need test coral frags I got plenty to hook you up for free. Cheers!

Thanks! I might hit you up once I get this worked out a bit.

[+SChrisEV]

How about your skimming levels and feeding of corals? I have had trouble keeping many digis in the newer tank where as in the old, little one they thrived, even with huge pH swings.

I have an over-sized skimmer, with the idea of getting a bigger tank in the future, a curve 7. It runs 24/7, but I don't skim very wet. Not sure if that answers your questions.

[FarmerTy]

This may be a dumb question, but what water are you topping off with and making water changes with? RO? When was the last time you changed the RO filter membranes? I start seeing coral decline when my RO membranes get about 6 months old.

Gig'em makes a good point. Its always good to eliminate RO issues but it sounds like you are fine in that department. I'm sure Gig'em meant to say filters and not membranes. The RO membrane should last you 3-5 years on average and the filters, I'd replace every 6-12 months, depending how dirty the water in your area is. The DI will usually let you know when it needs to be replaced either by color-changing resin or by your TDS creeping up.

[Neon Reefer]

Everything you mentioned points to an ULNS and these are great for SPS reefs and even mixed stony reefs if you are target feeding the LPS on a regular basis. But a mixed reef w/ softies really just will not have great success running ULnutrients. Seems like the bio pellets would only be applicable if your bio load was extreme and PO4 and NO3 were quite high. Other wise I see no real need for them in a mixed reef system. Good mechanical filtration including 200 mc filter socks / floss cleaned regularly and a good skimmer rated x2 of the display and skimming wet along w/ GFO and GAC when needed can pull your phates and trates down to near undetectable readings anyway. In my 75 G display (83 G total) mixed stony I feed 1.5 cubes mysis or brine + 1 cube Rods each day. In addition I feed 1/2 tsp Coral freenzy X2 weekly and target feed the LPS 1 cube puree mysis per week. With 8 ~ 3" fish total I have struggled to keep Trates and Phates detectable and my Riccordeas struggle. I beleive if you ramp down the bio pellets slowly and make no other changes except possibly uping the feedings some you will see better growth and color

Andre' >~)))*>

Edited September 9, 2014 by Neon Reefer

[Viet'spride70]

Any chance of stray voltage from a bad heater or something like that?

I suppose anything is possible, I don't have a way to test this. I know there have been threads about this, so I will look for those to see what I need to test.

if we live close by, i can loan u a multi-volt meter and show u how to test. its plain simple...text me 512-903-7773

[+SChrisEV]

Any chance of stray voltage from a bad heater or something like that?

I suppose anything is possible, I don't have a way to test this. I know there have been threads about this, so I will look for those to see what I need to test.

if we live close by, i can loan u a multi-volt meter and show u how to test. its plain simple...text me 512-903-7773

I might hit you up on that, but mostly because the DSA190 is kinda what I am thinking about moving up to in the questionable future. so I want to check ours out! Pflugerville is pretty small, so I expect I'm close.

[jestep]

I do find it interesting with everyone's experience with biopellets. I currently run about 2 cups of pellets in a reactor and haven't ever had problems using this much. Theoretically, the quantity of pellets shouldn't matter because they deplete at the rate they are being consumed by bacteria. Again in theory, running a lower volume shouldn't affect anything except the replenishment rate.

In my experience with STN on hard coral, I can almost 100% attribute it to alk instability. As far as zoa health goes, lighting and PO4 seems to be the biggest factors for me.

[Viet'spride70]

LMK WHEN U R READY TO COME BY ,SCHRIS..

[Richard L]

Does your plumbing have any metal fittings? Any of those "stainless steel" parts like wormscrew clamps? They always seem to start breaking down. My corals were not doing so great a while back so I chunked a Poly Filter pad in and it turned green telling me I had metals in the water. I figured out that I had used a brass fitting for a temporary fix and forgot about it. A couple of water changes and Poly Filter pads and everything went back to normal.

[Elizzy]

Salinity? What kind of salt are you using? The last issue I had with corals acting funny was when the DI resin needed replacing -- it still tested at 0 tds, but nothing was not happy. I replaced it, and it was like a miracle. I replace it every six months now, no matter what.

[+SChrisEV]

Does your plumbing have any metal fittings? Any of those "stainless steel" parts like wormscrew clamps? They always seem to start breaking down. My corals were not doing so great a while back so I chunked a Poly Filter pad in and it turned green telling me I had metals in the water. I figured out that I had used a brass fitting for a temporary fix and forgot about it. A couple of water changes and Poly Filter pads and everything went back to normal.

No, I don't have any metal fittings.... that I can think of or remember. There are two pumps in the sump, Mag 18 and the one that drives my bubble magus Curve 7 skimmer, I expect they have exposed stainless screw. Both are new or newer. I will take a closer look for that.

[+SChrisEV]

Salinity? What kind of salt are you using? The last issue I had with corals acting funny was when the DI resin needed replacing -- it still tested at 0 tds, but nothing was not happy. I replaced it, and it was like a miracle. I replace it every six months now, no matter what.

Yeah I should have mentioned that. My salinity is pretty consistently at 1.025. Regarding the DI, I have the color changing as well as a very new tester. In my new place I burn through DI like crazy, I replaced the filters, and even the membranes a few months ago, trying to figure out why, and I still don't know. But I am changing my DI resin pretty often right now.

I took the bio pellets reactor offline, I'm going to keep a close eye on the parameters and see how that goes. If things are not any better I will probably take samples of my water to maybe two stores and have them run tests as a second and third source.

[Sascha D.]

Do you have cyano or excess algae growth, i.e. having to clean the glass more than twice a week? If so, then I'm going with phosphates. I've never lost an SPS to anything but elevated phosphates.