Clark Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I've had mixed success starting this new reef tank. I've been taking advantage of low cost tiny frags from RCA and my friends here at ARC. It seems like any time I make a mistake like changing CA quickly or letting the temp fall for a day, a new coral frag recedes and never recovers. I'm watching my water params closely and trying to keep things stable with a temp controller and ATO controller. But I have to wonder, am I making it especially hard on myself by trying to raise little babies? Are larger colonies more resilient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 IMO well healed frags tend to be more resilient than large colonies. The challenge is to try to match conditions as best you can, which jsnt always possible. Pay special attention to alk and temperature (assuming your nutrient parameters are respectable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 If you remember my tank Clark, all my colonies were grown from frags 2" or smaller. In general, zoa frags and lps frags I have noticed do better the larger they are. SPS frags IME have better survival than large colonies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glumslum Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 No they are not depending on the corals some grow quicker then others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 if you are having problems with small frags remind yourself they are usually a lot cheaper than the large colonies. Corals actually "learn" their environment1,2 so if possible get the lighting conditions and water parameters of the tank the frags were grown in. You also don't need a lot of frags to fill a tank if your patient as many species can show significant growth in a short time once acclimated. And remember different species even in the same genus may want different environmental conditions so don't expect every coral you get to be happy. Just with Acropora spp. you'll find some species on the reef crest exposed to wave action, others in turbid waters and still others in calm lagoons. 1) http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00338-002-0215-z 2) http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+brian.srock Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I have the hardest time keeping tiny frags or snippets that are at or under 1cm due to the transition period which can bleach the base as well as gluing just a tiny piece since I don't use frag plugs in my tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think frags under 1" are very difficult and freshly cut frags even from a good system are a gamble. I try to get fully or mostly encrusted frags at all costs. At least this way you know that it was healthy coming out of the system. Colonies have been touch and go. Speaking in my own experience, I don't think a healthy colony is harder than a healthy frag unless you can't get it in an appropriate location in the tank. Probably my 2 best SPS were huge colonies that I got from local members. Both have been very resilient to the recent alk issues I've been having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaBoy Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hi Clark, I'm a self described cheapskate, and I also have bought quite a few small frags to grow out my tank with, many from RCA. I have not lost any of them so far. You did not mention your acclimation process for the frags. Personally, I think the lighting over their small frag tanks is dimmer than my tank, so I acclimate my frags over a period of 1-2 weeks to increasing light levels. Pretty much all new frags go on the bottom of my tank for at least a week, then I start moving them to their final locations once they look recovered and happy. In my opinion, this reduces the shock of having to adapt to a different light intensity on top of the recent stresses of being fragged, shipped to the LFS, acclimating to the LFS, then moving again to my tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 I only give them a day on the bottom, then they go into their final position (low/med/hi). They seem to do fine at first, they just grow extremely slowly and die the moment I make the smallest mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I would try to match flow/light as best as you can from the previous tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have greater success with tiny frags than I do larger corals. All of my corals started as less than 5 polyps, one head, or less than 2 inch sticks. I got a 0.5" sps coral from Ty that fell into my sandbed for two weeks before I found it and attached it back to a rock. It has since doubled in size. Out of all the corals that I've tried in the new tank, only one acro didn't make it. It turned white immediately and never recovered. One question, why are you dosing heavily enough to create Ca swings when all you have are tiny frags? Are you using that much daily? I don't know anything about your system or equipment but if I could make a blind suggestion, then I would say you should determine your daily usage and then dose that amount. Dosing methods vary but most people use a drip or manual dosing technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks for info and tips all. Sascha, I had a big ca drop while I was installing my ATO and I was clumsy with the supplements when raising it back up. Otherwise, as you would expect, my Mg/CA stays very steady since there is so little demand in the tank. One big gap in my understanding is time scales. I just don't know how fast corals should grow so I can't tell the difference between a suffering stagnant coral or a normal growth rate. When I see "nothing happening" for a week or two I start moving the thing around because I think the light or flow is wrong. I don't know if I'm saving it or pissing it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks for info and tips all. Sascha, I had a big ca drop while I was installing my ATO and I was clumsy with the supplements when raising it back up. Otherwise, as you would expect, my Mg/CA stays very steady since there is so little demand in the tank. One big gap in my understanding is time scales. I just don't know how fast corals should grow so I can't tell the difference between a suffering stagnant coral or a normal growth rate. When I see "nothing happening" for a week or two I start moving the thing around because I think the light or flow is wrong. I don't know if I'm saving it or pissing it off. Different corals grow at different speeds. It depends on whether you're spot feeding, temp of the water, photoperiod and calcium levels for hard corals. Also, different corals reproduce differently and on different initiatiors. It's not uncommon to have zero growth for months and then BOOM they explode. Below are some of my experiences with average water parameters: Polyp soft corals should replicate themselves regularily until they run out of space. Leathers are a little tricky to determine because they can shrink and expand, but I've noticed flesh growth of 5-10" per year in Toadstool and Devil's Hand. LPS stony corals grow new heads every few months. My hammers double every six months or so. SPS corals all grow at different intervals. Acropora and Stylophora are your slowest growers and are said to grow at a rate of 1" per year. The different families of Montipora grow faster and can put on anywhere between 1-5" per year. Seriatopora are going to be among your fastest growers easily growing from a 1" frag to baseball size in a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks. I guess I need to keep my hands out of the tank for a few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Acros get mad when you move them. Most consider them to be the pinnacle of reef success. Melev's Reef did a small Acropora write up once that I bookmarked. You may find it interesting. Acros are like women: Every day is different Dramatic changes cause dramatic behavoir Giving them everything they want keeps them happy, until one day they aren't happy any longer for no apparent reason Make them mad and you could spend months with the results Lastly, if one of ten things is wrong, you may have to go through all ten things to figure it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Case study: here are two frags I added last weekend. The one on the left is turning white underneath as expected; I hope it will mat down. The one on the right is turning white on the lit side only, in a stripe down its middle. Are they unhappy and bleaching, or happy and calcifying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I can't really tell from the picture. Maybe someone else can chime in. What I've always heard is that if the polyps are out, then the coral is happy. I've read other posts where people have said that acros turning white at the base is normal. I've only had two turn white on me; one completely bleached and died and the other stopped about midway through the skeleton and then recovered. Those look like red setosa to me. Did you get them recently at RCA? I got one as well and mine seems to be doing fine after two weeks. I probably wouldn't rubberband your hard corals though. It would make them mad. Most people use glue or epoxy to hold them in place until they encrust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+brian.srock Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Here's a little snippet of Red Dragon I got from Ty. It's almost completely STN but the tips aren't lost so I'm hoping it'll make a fast recovery now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Brian, I'm very interested to see if that recovers. So far, nothing of mine has recovered from a state like that, and I've given those cases a month to show any sign of recovery before tossing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madsalt Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Acros get mad when you move them. Most consider them to be the pinnacle of reef success. Melev's Reef did a small Acropora write up once that I bookmarked. You may find it interesting. Acros are like women: Every day is different Dramatic changes cause dramatic behavoir Giving them everything they want keeps them happy, until one day they aren't happy any longer for no apparent reason Make them mad and you could spend months with the results Lastly, if one of ten things is wrong, you may have to go through all ten things to figure it out This was funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Sascha, yep that's the same red setosa. I haven't seen polyps out on it yet (or on my German blue digi, like ever) but all three are still colorful in most areas and have those distinctive white caps. The white caps are growth areas correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 My setosa does not have white caps for growth. My forest fire digi does however. Could be alk burn, adjusting to new lights, or STN. Give it some time and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 All of my Montipora Digitata have white tips for growth. They are also very fuzzy with polyps. I haven't had the setosa very long, but I do see small polyps. Do you have any sps that are colorful and polyps extended? If so, what kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 The setosa and the blue are the only sps frags I still have and they haven't shown polyps in my tank ever. I've lost 5 sps frags since I've started my tank; some due to crashes in November, others for no reason I can tell. I've only had the blue since December so I don't have much experience with it. They all still have flesh over them and very distinct pores. I have them under moderate-high current because that's what I read to do, to keep them blown clean of detritus. Even lowering the current to low for a few weeks on the blue made no difference. Chemically, the tank has been very stable for months with these params: Ph 8.2 KH 9 Mg 1350 Ca 500 PO4 much less than 0.25ppm Salinity 1.0228-238 Temp 78.8-79.0 Maybe the darn things are just stubborn, but it's probably me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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