150g Indio-Pacific Biome

[Sascha D.]

Mine aren't really that bad yet. I have about four rocks that are completely covered and the rest is just here and there. I will very likely pull the worst rocks and give them a bath. That won't solve the problem but the more I can kill the slower it will spread.

The lights won't come on today and I split my peroxide dose in two parts. We'll see how it goes.

Here is one of the posts that convinced me to try this method.

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/268706-peroxide-saves-my-tank-with-pics-to-prove-it/

[Manny]

pH Meters can be had cheap. A pH controller is the more expensive item. Just mentioning in case you guys are talking about two different things.

Frog protection. . . fraud protection. . . .frog protection. . .fraud protection. . .frogggg. . . .fraudddddd. . . .I think we're on the same page. . . . we're totally on the same page.

[FarmerTy]

Mine aren't really that bad yet. I have about four rocks that are completely covered and the rest is just here and there. I will very likely pull the worst rocks and give them a bath. That won't solve the problem but the more I can kill the slower it will spread.

The lights won't come on today and I split my peroxide dose in two parts. We'll see how it goes.

Here is one of the posts that convinced me to try this method.

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/268706-peroxide-saves-my-tank-with-pics-to-prove-it/

I didn't have time to read through the whole thread but I only saw discussion of peroxide for algae removal and on the occasion, cyano removal as well.

I've been using the peroxide for algae for years but mainly as a dip as the thread has illuminated. It works wonders for killing off algae and I often use it as a dip for zoas/palys frags as they tolerate it best. Don't ever dip SPS in it... it'll kill them fast. I only rarely use it to dip whole rocks as an emergency because it'll kill off the beneficial bacteria at the dosages used to kill off algae.

I only mention as a caution. Dip the rocks if you want, it will most certainly kill off the dinos on them, but it will more than likely kill off the beneficial bacteria as well. I think blasting the dinos with a turkey baster and the whole tank peroxide dosing combined with a reduced lighting schedule should knock it out without having to remove the rocks or kill off the beneficial bacteria in them.

[+brian.srock]

pH Meters can be had cheap. A pH controller is the more expensive item. Just mentioning in case you guys are talking about two different things.

Frog protection. . . fraud protection. . . .frog protection. . .fraud protection. ..frogggg. . . .fraudddddd. . . .I think we're on the same page. . . . we're totally on the same page.

[nvrEnuf]

Sacha, have you thought about setting up a temp turf scubber? Say, in a five gallon bucket or spare tank next to your set-up system?

an 8X8 inch scrubber (once developed) should be plenty to take care of your dyno problem without the risk and trouble of HO2. It wouldn't filter the whole tank without a skimmer, but it SHOULD give you added filtration to overcome the issue.

Or

3 days with no lights in DT and 24 hr lights on scrubber mat and BAM! no more yucky yuck in the DT, along with knowing you actually removed the organic matter from the tank physically.

From your build thread you seem pretty patient, I can have a 8x8 sheet developed in a week or two; since my tank is still settling in from the upgrade the scrubber is currently going nuts.

[Manny]

Hey Sascha sorry for the late reply. However, everyone seems to have touched up on several key points to defeating this. I am not at all familiar with nvrenufs method. I did get a dino outbreak a few months ago and I was able to defeat it fairly quickly. I did a lot of research on the subject and was able to filter out the advice on forums that made no sense and used what I thought was best and made sense. Here's my recommendations:

First do absolutely uses H2O2. I removed several samples of dino from my aquarium and transported it to the lab. There I, with an experienced biologist who is also a biology instructor, dove into figuring this thing out. Out of the 10 samples I took to the lab 100% of them were eradicated with peroxide. I used different amounts of peroxide on each sample and still every sample died. But we used peroxide as the last experiment. First we cover them in a box and starve them from light. 70% of the samples seemed to have died but then when we hit them with a 48 hour photoperiod 3 of those 7 still came back. we were purposely trying to get them to come back to prove whether or not they were actually dead or just dormant. This disproved a common misconception that dinoflagellates are only photosynthetic. They are actually mixotrophic meaning that while they get most of their nutrition from light they can also feed off of the trace elements in the water and survive long periods without light before truly dying out. So while lights out helps tremendously, it doesn't get rid of them completely. So dose peroxide. The general consensus seems to be 1 ml per 10 gallons. I actually did .2 ml in a ten gallon sample and had the same results. I would still recommend 1 ml per 10 gallon though because that is what I used at home in my reef tank and it worked. Dinoflagellates are really bad for the aquarium. Even in the wild they wreak havoc. You can see the effects if you google red tide. They will take out your snails and coral if allowed to. Your snails will be first to go. I lost a lot of my snails during that period.

At the same time I would also do a 3 day blackout period. Might as well attack this full force.I wouldn't do more than one period a month because your coral will start showing signs of stress. During the 3 days make sure you are dosing H2O2. You can break the dosages down like Ty did but it is not necessary. I did mine all at once. It is better to do it when the dino's seem to be less visible. During the day they seem to get really thick and the peroxide doesn't seem as effective. If you combine these two after the 3 days the dino's will seem to be gone. Don't stop dosing peroxide. Do this for at least 2 weeks to ensure you are battling any remains of it still. I wouldn't do it for longer than 2 weeks for fear of damaging my sps. They don't take well to H2O2. So if you need to dose for longer than 2 weeks make sure to give it a week break between.

As the days go by you will notice a ton of bubble trying to form all over the aquarium but more so on the rocks. 3-4 times a day I would go in there with a turkey baster and blow all the bubbles off. They seem to stick together all the way down the overflow. Do not allow these to build up. It seemed to me that these bubble were toxic but that was just speculation. Once they build up enough they start turning red and slimy and eventually get stringy and start suffocating the coral. If you see them starting to build up on coral make sure to blow them off as well. If you see red patches of dino on the sandbed blow those around with the turkey baster as well so they can go down the overflow. once they go down the overflow, I don't see them make their way back up to the DT. I don't even see them in the refugium so that makes me assume they aren't making it past the skimmer. I would stir up the sandbed slightly each day and try to get it to float around and into the overflow or bury it in the sandbed. Don't bury too much though or mix the sandbed too much. You don't need a nitrate spike. This takes a lot of effort on your part. I wouldn't worry about pulling the rocks out if you are blasting them with a turkey baster daily.

You need to also scrape it off the glass. It gets really thick on the back glass and becomes easy to overlook. Please do not let it grow on the glass. Scrape it off as soon as it becomes visible and let it go down the overflow.

Stop doing water changes. Water changes replenish trace elements. Remember that dino's not only feed on light but can live on trace elements as well. Most people report seeing them multiply right after a water change so while you are battling them, try to avoid water changes unless absolutely necessary.

I never actually reduced my photoperiod. It didn't seem necessary. Now, the dino's were not completely eradicated in my aquarium. They went away for several months but seem to be trying to make a comeback. I noticed it early on this time. First signs of it were multiple bubbles all over the rocks. Next the snails started behaving lethargic. It is important to identify it early on. You want to hit it with the blackout as soon as you see come back and dose peroxide. I chose not to do a blackout this time because when I do my anemone goes crazy and I don't need it sitting on my sps. I have followed all of the other steps though and have kept them at bay. It is taking longer to defeat them this time around but they have not multiplied any and havent even bothered my coral. I am not worried about them. I feel I am already winning the battle with all the other steps.

From everything I wrote, if I had to choose one step and call it the most important I would say the peroxide is the most important. This is not set in stone and is based off my experience with it in my aquarium and in the lab. I wish some million dollar company would spend some money and provide us with an actual scientific experiment to figure out whether or not the peroxide helps. But for now I will go with what has worked for me. Your zoas will be mad but they will get over it 5 minutes later.

I hope this helps. I feel like I am leaving so much out but if I remember anything else I will be sure to let you know.

[Bpb]

That's awesome that you took them up to the lab and had the prof check them out. Wish you would have taken pics. Of the microscope images

[Manny]

I did take pictures but have since upgraded phone.

[FarmerTy]

I'm pretty sure there was a picture of Bigfoot and the loch ness monster in there too. [emoji12]

Kidding aside, great experiment there Manny. Mental note... buy a microscope.

[jolt]

Wow Manny! Thanks for the detailed post. I hope I never have to use it, but I know where to go if I do ...

[Sascha D.]

Awesome post Manny! I really do appreciate everyone's insight into the problem.

I have conducted a few minor experiments to see what might work before going to the peroxide. Just like you I thought that the dinos may not be photosynthetic at all. I took a rock out of the tank and stored it in a dark qt for two days. By the end of the two day period I noticed the mass had gone down by about 25% or so, but did not go away. I saw reduced bubbles captured in the sludge, but it was slimy still. However, all of the mass came back within a day after putting the rock back into the tank, complete with bubbles. I know there are different strains of dinos and mine appears to go dormant without light but don't die. It could also be that the darkness was not long enough.

I have used peroxide in the past on cyano and aiptasia with great success. In fact that's all I use for aiptasia and it kills in one dose. However, I have never dosed the whole tank with it. I hadn't even heard of it done before until I started researching how to kill dinos. The strain in my tank is only on the rocks and I have not noticed any on the sand or the glass.

I thought that it was possible that excess nitrates or phosphates coupled with the increase in light intensity may have caused the bloom. So the first thing I did after deciding to dose peroxide was to do a 15% water change. This was my 6th water change in two years. Since I don't have a CUC, I got down in there and vacuumed the sand figuring it might be dirty. It wasn't very bad at all and there weren't any spots that pulled more than 1 second of dirt through the siphon. Surprisingly I saw a reduction after the water change.

Day 2 of dosing peroxide: The skimmer is going crazy! I emptied this collection cup on Sunday and by Wednesday this is what it looked like. I assume the peroxide is killing the dinos or algae and the skimmer is pulling it out.

[Sascha D.]

Day 5: I'm not sure the peroxide dosing is having any effect. All of the rocks still look the same and, aside from the skimmer producing more than normal, I don't see any difference. How long does it take to see noticeable results?

[FarmerTy]

Did you do days of darkness? Reduce lighting schedule? Blasting it off the rocks/sand with turkey baster?

[Sascha D.]

I did three days of darkness followed by a reduced lighting intensity. I did not blast other than applying the peroxide. It seems pretty stuck on the rocks and they turkey baster didn't move it like it does detrius. When I pull the rocks out of the tank it looks and feels like a slime covering the surface.

[FarmerTy]

Was it still there after the 3 days of darkness?

Sounds like you took out some rocks to treat. Did you apply the peroxide directly to them or did you dip the rocks?

I saw this the other day at Walgreens that might be useful. Spray bottle hydrogen peroxide... genius! Maybe remove the rocks and apply directly? It would reduce beneficial bacteria death over dipping the whole rock.

[Manny]

Did you use peroxide during the 3days darkness?

[Sascha D.]

Awesome post Manny! I really do appreciate everyone's insight into the problem.

I have conducted a few minor experiments to see what might work before going to the peroxide. Just like you I thought that the dinos may not be photosynthetic at all. I took a rock out of the tank and stored it in a dark qt for two days. By the end of the two day period I noticed the mass had gone down by about 25% or so, but did not go away. I saw reduced bubbles captured in the sludge, but it was slimy still. However, all of the mass came back within a day after putting the rock back into the tank, complete with bubbles. I know there are different strains of dinos and mine appears to go dormant without light but don't die. It could also be that the darkness was not long enough.

I have used peroxide in the past on cyano and aiptasia with great success. In fact that's all I use for aiptasia and it kills in one dose. However, I have never dosed the whole tank with it. I hadn't even heard of it done before until I started researching how to kill dinos. The strain in my tank is only on the rocks and I have not noticed any on the sand or the glass.

I thought that it was possible that excess nitrates or phosphates coupled with the increase in light intensity may have caused the bloom. So the first thing I did after deciding to dose peroxide was to do a 15% water change. This was my 6th water change in two years. Since I don't have a CUC, I got down in there and vacuumed the sand figuring it might be dirty. It wasn't very bad at all and there weren't any spots that pulled more than 1 second of dirt through the siphon. Surprisingly I saw a reduction after the water change.

Day 2 of dosing peroxide: The skimmer is going crazy! I emptied this collection cup on Sunday and by Wednesday this is what it looked like. I assume the peroxide is killing the dinos or algae and the skimmer is pulling it out.

20150114_060922.jpg

I performed two periods of darkness. The first is outlined above, where I removed a sample rock and put it into a separate dark container. The next was between Monday and Wednesday, where the whole tank was dark. During that time I applied peroxide to the water column only since I couldn't see in the tank. Before this dark period I squirted the peroxide directly on the rocks while under water, as suggested.

I'll take some pictures tonight when I get home.

[Manny]

Hey so I am not saying this is fact but I started using NOPOX 4 days ago. I had a thick dino film all over my sand bed and after day 1 of NOPOX I noticed it diminished dramatically. Each day I use it reduces how thick it is. 4 days later it is virtually non existing. If you have the same results we might be on to a breakthrough here. I would try it. It cost about $15.

[Sascha D.]

NOPOX looks like a nitrate reducer and phosphate binder. That would definitely work on cyano,, but I'm not sure about dino. From what I've read dinos aren't necessarily the result of bad water quality. It may help though.

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[Manny]

It helped for me.

[FarmerTy]

NOPOX is just a mixture of vinegar and vodka. It's just liquid carbon dosing, but with good guidelines so you don't nuke your tank.

Carbon dosing exports nitrates very well and also exports phosphates to a small degree. I would never count on it to lower your phosphates to the level you want alone unless you just have a small bioload. I would also combine with GFO or maybe a large refugium.

[Sascha D.]

I read one account of someone dosing vodka to combat cyano. Something about the good bacteria consuming everything before the cyano. It basically suffocates it out.

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[FarmerTy]

I forget if you run a skimmer or not Manny but if you don't, then I could see the resultant bacteria population that the NOPOX created in your tank, if not exported by a skimmer, to possibly out compete the cyano bacteria or the dinoflaggelates.

[FarmerTy]

Get out of my head Sascha!

[Manny]

I do run an overrated skimmer. It could have been that the dino was just about to for our when I started NOPOX and I accept that. But there it's a small chance that out helped. Anyhow, sorry to correct you on this but NOPOX actually does not have any vodka.