Janelle12 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 Oh I was referring to the critters in the rock in that last comment, not the stuff about the algae. about how the LR denitrifies and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 Here's a quote from the thread about the source of the info on that thread: "Spanky works for the NOAA under the fisheries department i believe. ibelieve he helped in figuring out populations and fishing controls forthe Keys. he also had one heck of an aquarium. here are some of the mostinformative threads that Spanky has led, i have already posted some ofthese. there are more. just go into The Think Tank and do a search forthreads started by Spanky. then if you want more reading go over to RCand do a search of threads started by Bomber. it will not take you longto realize just how knowledgeable he is and the accuracy of what he issaying. i really think back in 04-05 the hobby was about to turn a corner andhead back to real knowledge of what was really necessary to keep what wewant for an extended period of time. Spanky was starting to bring in alot of information from the aquaculture industry and through academia onwhat they do to keep critters alive for study and bringing that intoour hobby. this went against just about everything these two were sayingand what the vast majority of the industry was getting their moneyfrom. we spend gobs and gobs of money on devices to keep phosphatesdown, just to keep sand in the tank without touching it."there is one other thread that i can not seem to find about heavymetals. it is quite important in the fact that these two were obviouslygetting kickbacks from other places and the studies they did werehelping in this regard.""i am just not making this stuff up here. i really have been around quitea while and i am just remembering these fantastic threads that shouldnot be buried in time. this information needs to get out there in orderto keep our hobby going." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esacjack Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I think what you'll find in this hobby, is there are 100 different ways to accomplish the same end-goal Just do what feels right to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Patrick will have to correct me if im wrong, but I believe the calcaerous macro's are the ones that can leach consumed nutrients back into the column, generally calcium. I'm REALLY on the fence about a plant leaching phosphates back into the water column. To my understanding, the point of using macro as an export is to literally, export the overgrown macro, to permanently rid yourself of those nutrients, and to allow the macro to go back into a growth spurt, thereby utilizing more of the nutrients in the water column. (as vic pointed out) Most macro consume inorganic phosphate from water column in a ratio or 100:1 nitrate to phosphate. If the plant dies or goes sexual, then it will have released the same nutrients back into the water column. The same as if a fish died in your tank. Macro that is growing and healthy has used nutrients from water column. This would be considered nutrient recycling until it was removed from the tank as an export mechanism. If you feed macro to fish in display, this would be one more form of nutrient recycling in the tank. With respect to a discussion on phosphate in sand beds, it will get deep fast. Organic phosphate will accumulate in sandbed, if no export mechanism is used. Macroalgae will not assimilate organic phosphate. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esacjack Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 thanks patrick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Regarding the macro. I think the point of pruning is that pruning encourages growth and removes old tissue. Eventually tissue will die and release what it once consumed to build its tissues. So by pruning macro you ensure that it stays a manageable size, doesn't shade anything, encourages growth spurts for more nutrient uptake, ect. Am I wrong Patrick? That seems to kind of be the consensus of everything I've read. I prune my halimeda in my tank because it gets unruly and starts blocking light from lower positioned zoas. To follow what esacjack said, you definitely jumped back on board when this is a really hot topic. The idea that there are many ways to do things and people will die defending their methods. Do what works for your tank goals and your budget. There is almost always a way to do what you want with what you can spend. Your tank will tell you quickly if it doesn't like what you're doing. For me it didn't like ANYTHING I was doing lol. You fix one thing at a time and eventually everything looks great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 yeah but why would you want to have a system so high in phosphates and nutrients, that you would NEED macro to export it out? Aren't there better ways to keep a tank? Shoot, I don't care what y'all do, but I'm just saying what I'm doing with my tank. No problem with discussing though I think you can have a DSB and mangroves and turf scrubbers and macroalgae, there's more than one way to skin a cat. it just isnt what I want to do i agree. more than one way that have been shown to be effective over the years. although, you will even get arguments about definitions of effective and whatnot. as for post 277, that was the article that i was referring to. it was the assumption 3 part. i am no expert in rock, water, or much of anything else, but when i read the part about how slowly water will move in and out of tiny holes in the rock it just struck me a reasonable. as for post 278, i have no knowledge of the palace intrigue. nor, i guess, do i know who should and should not be classified as an expert. but with the more than one way to skin a cat part, i don't think that disagreement with experts can necessarily be considered one being wrong and one being right. i was honestly just curious about your macro, not trying to start a whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 LOL. Sorry. Ok, this quote is partly why I was like, oh, its not doing me any good? OK I'll take it out..... "algae do bind phosphates (if your system has any), but they are also leaky. they are like any other organism they have biological functions. they have wastes they need to get rid of also." Macroalgae absorb nutrients into their biomass using photosynthesis to combine with carbon dioxide. In the process, they give off oxygen. During dark, they give off carbon dioxide. What is leaky about that? Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 LOL. Sorry. Ok, this quote is partly why I was like, oh, its not doing me any good? OK I'll take it out..... "algae do bind phosphates (if your system has any), but they are also leaky. they are like any other organism they have biological functions. they have wastes they need to get rid of also." Macroalgae absorb nutrients into their biomass using photosynthesis to combine with carbon dioxide. In the process, they give off oxygen. During dark, they give off carbon dioxide. What is leaky about that? Patrick I believe she's referring to NO3/PO4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Regarding the macro. I think the point of pruning is that pruning encourages growth and removes old tissue. Eventually tissue will die and release what it once consumed to build its tissues. So by pruning macro you ensure that it stays a manageable size, doesn't shade anything, encourages growth spurts for more nutrient uptake, ect. Am I wrong Patrick? That seems to kind of be the consensus of everything I've read. I prune my halimeda in my tank because it gets unruly and starts blocking light from lower positioned zoas. To follow what esacjack said, you definitely jumped back on board when this is a really hot topic. The idea that there are many ways to do things and people will die defending their methods. Do what works for your tank goals and your budget. There is almost always a way to do what you want with what you can spend. Your tank will tell you quickly if it doesn't like what you're doing. For me it didn't like ANYTHING I was doing lol. You fix one thing at a time and eventually everything looks great Prunning and removing macro would be the equivalent of fragging and removing coral. They both consume nutrients and store biomass. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 LOL. Sorry. Ok, this quote is partly why I was like, oh, its not doing me any good? OK I'll take it out..... "algae do bind phosphates (if your system has any), but they are also leaky. they are like any other organism they have biological functions. they have wastes they need to get rid of also." Macroalgae absorb nutrients into their biomass using photosynthesis to combine with carbon dioxide. In the process, they give off oxygen. During dark, they give off carbon dioxide. What is leaky about that? Patrick I believe she's referring to NO3/PO4 From the linked thread, Spanky was quoted as saying leaky biological functions. This means absolutely nothing. To imply that biological functions of micro and macro algae are similiar to higher life forms like a baby with a dirty diaper has little place for an informed discussion. Nitrate and phosphate do not ooze from macro biomass, unless it is dead and decomposing. Just the same as when a coral or a fish die. Unless I missed a relevant post on this thread, please explain the biological process that leaches phosphate and nitrate into the water from macroalgae. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I don't know, I was just trying to infer what they/she were talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Oh I was referring to the critters in the rock in that last comment, not the stuff about the algae. about how the LR denitrifies and why.The critters in the rock are bacteria. The same as in the sand.Nitrification takes pace with bacteria in the presence of oxygen, the bacteria consume ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. De-nitrification takes place in a reducing enviroment of oxygen. Nitrogen gas is the end product and is exported out of the tank as a gas. These bacteria live in sand or rock that supply these conditions. Coral removes some nitrate. Macroalgae is the single largest consumer of nitrate in our reef tanks. If you don't use macro, establish a good water change regime. According to the EPA, "dilution is the solution to pollution". The reason this method is faulty to me is that it demonstrates insufficient biological filtration that requires continual dilution, instead of dealing with insufficient bio filtration. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted June 15, 2013 Author Share Posted June 15, 2013 ROk re: macro being leaky and whether areas where coral thrives also have a lot of macro, see: http://m.pnas.org/content/108/43/17726.full.pdf And post number 995 on that thread. Subsea im only half awake so please clarify: in your first reply it seemed you were saying macro can leak (nitrate and phos, not including via removal or pruning) but the rest seem to say 'not possible.' Will you check the above and chime in? Thanks. In my reef tank from years ago, i also kept halimeda and the red dragons tongue algae along with soft corals and some lps. The softies did better than the stonies always. I wonder if there is a macro connection after reading the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted June 15, 2013 Author Share Posted June 15, 2013 Subsea i meant 'the rest of your posts,' sorry. And ignore the goofy Rok at the beginning. **** iphone. Im on vacation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted June 15, 2013 Author Share Posted June 15, 2013 Subsea i meant 'the rest of your posts,' sorry. And ignore the goofy Rok at the beginning. **** iphone. Im on vacation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Macro does not leach anything into the water unless it is dying. During normal respiration, during photosynthesis, macro consumes carbon dioxide and gives of oxygen. The consumption of carbon dioxide combined with nutrients in water column produce biomass. During normal respiration, with lights out, macro gives off carbon dioxide and absorbs oxygen. Typically, the pH would be decreasing as the carbon dioxide is increasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share Posted June 16, 2013 So that paper is totally off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 So that paper is totally off?I must confess that I did not read the article. I merely commented to the quote from the article dealing with macro algae biology in our reef systems. If you wish to bring up certain aspects of the article, then by all means do so. I will not debate the merits of the author. We will discuss the merits of the science or the "art of reef keeping". La bonne temps roulee, Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 Getting back on the subject of the tank 'build' (not much of a build since I don't really plan on building anything....and using hang on equipment LOL!).... I decided I had too much crushed coral and removed it and reaquascaped. I bought a royal gramma, he's in the QT so I can make sure he's healthy for a few days before I put him in the main tank. Any thoughts on whether or not to do a preemptive formalin/malachite green round just to be safe? Here are some pics. The filth that came out of the crushed coral astounds me. This is a tank that was set up less than thirty days ago, with rinsed crushed coral and cured live rock. Where did all this detritus come from?! See pic of dirty water. and one funny pic of the tank ridiculously overstocked with cartoon fish. Oh!! And does anybody know if anyone in Austin can or plans to raise clownfish? I'd love to get tank bred and raised by a local hobbyist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 forgot to add a pic of the gramma. He's loving his spongebob pineapple and vinyl cling tropical stickers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted July 4, 2013 Author Share Posted July 4, 2013 Well I sort of deviated from the plan but it seems to be working out okay so far. Here's a pic of my blasphemous plastic plants and resin corals......the kids love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Getting back on the subject of the tank 'build' (not much of a build since I don't really plan on building anything....and using hang on equipment LOL!).... I decided I had too much crushed coral and removed it and reaquascaped. I bought a royal gramma, he's in the QT so I can make sure he's healthy for a few days before I put him in the main tank. Any thoughts on whether or not to do a preemptive formalin/malachite green round just to be safe? Here are some pics. The filth that came out of the crushed coral astounds me. This is a tank that was set up less than thirty days ago, with rinsed crushed coral and cured live rock. Where did all this detritus come from?! See pic of dirty water. and one funny pic of the tank ridiculously overstocked with cartoon fish. Oh!! And does anybody know if anyone in Austin can or plans to raise clownfish? I'd love to get tank bred and raised by a local hobbyist. User bchap has/had a pretty good crop of tank raised clowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle12 Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 I saw that, just a little too late! I got a pair of tank bred already. Well today thanks to someone on here, I got a new-to-me skimmer, its a CPR bak pak and I put the maxijet 1200 powerhead on it until the Accela that I ordered comes in. Boy is it going to town, but unfortunately, it is releasing a BLIZZARD of micro bubbles into the tank and it is VERY LOUD. I put a little muffler on the air intake valve but the majority of the noise is coming from the pump itself. I had the same pump running as just water movement in the tank and it was quiet, but with the air venturi...man. I'm planning on shutting it off tonight so the poor fish can get some sleep!!! I hope it breaks in, but probably the time it does, the other pump will come in (roll eyes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Sucks you're having issues. Microbubbles can be overcome with a filter sock if design allows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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