Want to hear from anyone using a DSB in their DT, also miracle mud for sump

[gibs]

Hey guys getting ready for last part of my setup, drained the tank today haven't had one drop leak so did my final clean up and getting ready to start filling up with RO water.

Have read a couple of great articles the last few days that have talked about using DSB's in their DT. It prompted me to start doing some research and I am really liking the idea. However I would like to hear from some people that have been actually doing it and see what their thoughts are. A few questions for those same folks, where did you get your DSB fauna at? What types of fauna are you using? Any types of CUC, or fish I should stay away from if using a DSB?

Also I keep seeing and hearing about this miracle mud to put in sumps/refugiums instead of a regular sand bed anyone got any experience/thoughts on this?

Thanks guys!

[subsea]

Miracle Mud and Snake Oil.

I have a 75G display tank with a 30G mud filter/vegatable filter refugium. I bought it with the miracle mud five years ago. Since then a spongy mat of deitrus has added slightly to the depth of miracle mud. Olite "sugar sand" would work imo.

I have a Jaubert Plenumn with a 5" dsb. Using this method, the arrogonite used is Caribsea "Florida Crushed Coral" with a grain size 2mm-5mm. This grain size favors pods and bacteria. Nitrification chemistry happens in the oxygen rich upper third of the substrate. As the water migrates deeper into sandbed the oxygen nears anerobic in the "faculative zone" and de-nitrification chemistry reduces nitrate into nitrogen gas.

My refugium is a mud filter. This is where biodiversity of micro fauna is most abundant. With respect to detrivore kits, I recommend that you look at IndoPacific SeaFarm.

http://www.ipsf.com/

This is a good site to learn about dsb methods and CUC.

http://www.chucksadd...leanupcrew.html

Enjoy the reading. We will talk more later.

Patrick

[DerrickH]

subsea has a tremendous amount of knowledge on biological filtration methods. You can do it with harware, but just requires more elbow grease. Seems a combination of the two would be a sure success...

[gibs]

Miracle Mud and Snake Oil.

I have a 75G display tank with a 30G mud filter/vegatable filter refugium. I bought it with the miracle mud five years ago. Since then a spongy mat of deitrus has added slightly to the depth of miracle mud. Olite "sugar sand" would work imo.

I have a Jaubert Plenumn with a 5" dsb. Using this method, the arrogonite used is Caribsea "Florida Crushed Coral" with a grain size 2mm-5mm. This grain size favors pods and bacteria. Nitrification chemistry happens in the oxygen rich upper third of the substrate. As the water migrates deeper into sandbed the oxygen nears anerobic in the "faculative zone" and de-nitrification chemistry reduces nitrate into nitrogen gas.

My refugium is a mud filter. This is where biodiversity of micro fauna is most abundant. With respect to detrivore kits, I recommend that you look at IndoPacific SeaFarm.

http://www.ipsf.com/

This is a good site to learn about dsb methods and CUC.

http://www.chucksadd...leanupcrew.html

Enjoy the reading. We will talk more later.

Patrick

Patrick you are the bomb! Thanks man

Ok now I am still taking this in and need to probably reread the chucks link you put in there but man that was good stuff. Ok now I have a few questions.

One ok yeah I dislike the the name miracle mud and anything that has miracle in it immediately brings up the idea of snake oil in my mind. But you did say you are using a mud filter in your refugium? I am looking at all sorts of stuff on this mud substrate for a refugium but still not sure how to set up it up. Will I need another chamber in my sump for this? Or is it just simply replacing the sand substrate with the mud? I wanted some extra live rock and some macro algae on top of it, is this still ok? Any good articles you can point me to on that? Is this CaribSea Aragamax Sugar-Sized Sand what you are referring to that you use for your "mud"?

2. Ok on my deep sand bed what I have researched is to use a finer sand with a max size of 2.0mm and most in the 0.5mm size like the CaribSea Dry Aragonite Fiji Pink Reef Sand. Now this is what I am using in my nano right and I really like it but you are using a much bigger grain? Does it matter? Again this is what I have researched but why I am asking for advice.

3. Ok I looked at IPSF and they seem to have everything I need. I am thinking of getting these items.

1. Baby bristle worms and ma ma mia worms

2. Mini stars

3. Sandbed clams

4. Amphipods

What do you think? What am I missing?

Thanks man I think I owe you a drink some time

[gibs]

Other thoughts on the cuc link you provided he suggest staying away from hermits but it's pretty much everywhere that people think these guys are good? What are your thoughts? Is it a DBS thing? I was never thinking of going with the 50 or so that some sites recommend for my size tank but my 5 or 10? Also the nessarius snail http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/productDetail.asp?did=2&pid=1140&cid=82 I have one of these in my nano and the guy is awesome and eating left over food from feeding is one really that bad? My youngest daughter is fascinated with this and call him snowy because it looks like snow when he plows out from the sand at feeding time LOL. Last one ummm I really want a urchin what are your thoughts on this?

Again thanks for all the advice and tips and links to good research!

[Teresa]

Don't buy the ma ma mia worms. I've got a ton and I'm happy to donate some. If you come to the August meeting, you can get them then.

[FarmerTy]

Gibs,

What size is your tank? Are you setting up a new one or running the 16g you have listed on your profile?

If 16g, personally I wouldn't do a DSB because at least for me, I would hate how much real estate it takes in such a small tank. 5" of sand in a 16g, you'd end up with like 1/3rd of your viewable tank as just sand. Probably not that bad in your case but the nanocube I'm picturing looks like that in my head.

Again, just IMO, but I hate hermit crabs and feel no need to keep a single one in my 125-gallon tank. I think it's just an industry standard to throw them in there and it's been the status quo for so long that nobody looks back and says... why are these in my tank again? If I had kids that loved looking at the little guys run around, then I would get some just for display purposes.

Not a big fan of urchins either. They knock things over, eat your nice purple coralline algae, and are voracious eaters. I have fears of them clearing out all edible algae in your tank in 1-2months time and would either starve to death or you would have to supplement their feeding. If you don't mind that and you enjoy watching them, much like the hermit crab scenario above, then pick one up for display purposes but be prepared to reglue frags that it knocked over, lose most of your coraline, and possibly have to supplement its food when all the algae is gone. If you are setting up a larger tank than the 16g, you probably would not have to supplement the feeding at least.

I enjoy my nassarius and despite what anybody says, I think they are beneficial and not as much of a pain in the rear as I think hermit crabs are. Both will eat the extra food that doesn't get eaten or anything rotting/dying. Don't believe most of the hype about hermit crabs or nassarius snails eating anything else than that. Cyano? Diatoms? GHA? I'll believe it when I see it. I'm sure there are exceptions but in my experience, they are rare.

Hope some of the info helps. Just my 2 cents... I am by no means the final word on anything.

-Ty

[gibs]

Gibs,

What size is your tank? Are you setting up a new one or running the 16g you have listed on your profile?

If 16g, personally I wouldn't do a DSB because at least for me, I would hate how much real estate it takes in such a small tank. 5" of sand in a 16g, you'd end up with like 1/3rd of your viewable tank as just sand. Probably not that bad in your case but the nanocube I'm picturing looks like that in my head.

Again, just IMO, but I hate hermit crabs and feel no need to keep a single one in my 125-gallon tank. I think it's just an industry standard to throw them in there and it's been the status quo for so long that nobody looks back and says... why are these in my tank again? If I had kids that loved looking at the little guys run around, then I would get some just for display purposes.

Not a big fan of urchins either. They knock things over, eat your nice purple coralline algae, and are voracious eaters. I have fears of them clearing out all edible algae in your tank in 1-2months time and would either starve to death or you would have to supplement their feeding. If you don't mind that and you enjoy watching them, much like the hermit crab scenario above, then pick one up for display purposes but be prepared to reglue frags that it knocked over, lose most of your coraline, and possibly have to supplement its food when all the algae is gone. If you are setting up a larger tank than the 16g, you probably would not have to supplement the feeding at least.

I enjoy my nassarius and despite what anybody says, I think they are beneficial and not as much of a pain in the rear as I think hermit crabs are. Both will eat the extra food that doesn't get eaten or anything rotting/dying. Don't believe most of the hype about hermit crabs or nassarius snails eating anything else than that. Cyano? Diatoms? GHA? I'll believe it when I see it. I'm sure there are exceptions but in my experience, they are rare.

Hope some of the info helps. Just my 2 cents... I am by no means the final word on anything.

-Ty

Thanks Jeeper! I am setting up a 85 oceanic right now. So it is quite a bit bigger. Yes I have heard about the urchins knocking stuff over and eating coralline, but I think they are really cool and I want one just to look at it. I thought about knixing it off the list but at the end of the day almost every fish/snail has some downside even if it's just feeding it and we build these things to bring a cool little part of the ocean into our home, so unless someone can give me a better reason than he will knock stuff over and eat the purple stuff I think I am going to go with one. Again though I appreciate any advice there is a ton of misleading stuff on the web, some of it just people saying I been doing this 20 years and this is how it should be done, some of it people trying to sell you stuff, and occasionally a good piece research that brings some thoughtful insight into some part of this hobby. Honestly this is quickly becoming a favorite part of this hobby LOL.

Thanks guys!

[subsea]

Miracle Mud and Snake Oil.

I have a 75G display tank with a 30G mud filter/vegatable filter refugium. I bought it with the miracle mud five years ago. Since then a spongy mat of deitrus has added slightly to the depth of miracle mud. Olite "sugar sand" would work imo.

I have a Jaubert Plenumn with a 5" dsb. Using this method, the arrogonite used is Caribsea "Florida Crushed Coral" with a grain size 2mm-5mm. This grain size favors pods and bacteria. Nitrification chemistry happens in the oxygen rich upper third of the substrate. As the water migrates deeper into sandbed the oxygen nears anerobic in the "faculative zone" and de-nitrification chemistry reduces nitrate into nitrogen gas.

My refugium is a mud filter. This is where biodiversity of micro fauna is most abundant. With respect to detrivore kits, I recommend that you look at IndoPacific SeaFarm.

http://www.ipsf.com/

This is a good site to learn about dsb methods and CUC.

http://www.chucksadd...leanupcrew.html

Enjoy the reading. We will talk more later.

Patrick

Patrick you are the bomb! Thanks man

Ok now I am still taking this in and need to probably reread the chucks link you put in there but man that was good stuff. Ok now I have a few questions.

One ok yeah I dislike the the name miracle mud and anything that has miracle in it immediately brings up the idea of snake oil in my mind. But you did say you are using a mud filter in your refugium? I am looking at all sorts of stuff on this mud substrate for a refugium but still not sure how to set up it up. Will I need another chamber in my sump for this? Or is it just simply replacing the sand substrate with the mud? I wanted some extra live rock and some macro algae on top of it, is this still ok? Any good articles you can point me to on that? Is this CaribSea Aragamax Sugar-Sized Sand what you are referring to that you use for your "mud"?

2. Ok on my deep sand bed what I have researched is to use a finer sand with a max size of 2.0mm and most in the 0.5mm size like the CaribSea Dry Aragonite Fiji Pink Reef Sand. Now this is what I am using in my nano right and I really like it but you are using a much bigger grain? Does it matter? Again this is what I have researched but why I am asking for advice.

3. Ok I looked at IPSF and they seem to have everything I need. I am thinking of getting these items.

1. Baby bristle worms and ma ma mia worms

2. Mini stars

3. Sandbed clams

4. Amphipods

What do you think? What am I missing?

Thanks man I think I owe you a drink some time

With respect to critters from IPSF, I like your list. I recommend that you network with the ARC members and get these guys for free instead of flown in from Hawaii. Instead of buying live sand which is usually live with bacteria only, I recommend seeding with mature sand from someones refugium.

No problem with the substrate that you mentioned. It would not work in a Jaubert Plenumn, but it will make for a good deep sand bed for your detrivore crew. If you read the article on CUC, at the end is a detailed start up of a reef tank with a deep sand bed method of reef keeping. Patience while establishing you detrivore crew. Wait six months before adding fish. The reason for the disdain of hermits is because of their propensity to eat everything, including the CUC.

With respect to the mud filter, I have found that the accumulation of detrius in the sump works as well as any "miracle mud". Think of it as an organic soup full of micro fauna and fana. Most products that are offered for mud filters are high in iron. In my 135G lagoon, I mixed a fresh water substrate high in iron packaged by Seachem. Most of us that use vegatable filters in our refugiums dose with iron. The finer the media in the mud filter the more biodiversity in the mud.

Patrick

[subsea]

http://www.reefland.com/2012/07/best-plants-and-algae-for-refugia-part-ii-vegetable-filters/

I like combining a mud filter with a macro lagoon, or as Anthony Calfo says "Vegetable Filter.

[gibs]

Yeah I saw that set up part....I am still grappling with the 6 months thing in my mind...patience I understand but....6 months? Sigh...

[subsea]

Only in American reefkeeping is six months a long time. If you want the benefit of your filter processing nutriants and feeding corals then you must allow it to mature without fish decimating the micro inverts. Good things do not happen with the blink of an eye.

Good luck,

Patrick

[subsea]

If that leangth of time is too long to wait on adding fish, then I would suggest not putting a dsb in the display tank. Without the biodiversity of detrivores, dsb can be a nutriant generator. You may want to consider your mud filter as the bio-diversity generator. You could also set up a remote dsb as part of an extended refugium system. Refugium in this context means free of predators or a refuge from predators.

[gibs]

No I understand Patrick and I wasn't planning on putting fish in for a couple of months, 6 months does sound like a long time though. We will see not totally ruling it out but may just plan on doing a refugium with a DSB like everyone else. I also like the idea of doing a remote DSB with a lot of planted macro algae, as a secondary display. I really like the look of some the macro algae I think it is absolutely beautiful. Any downsides to doing that? What would be considered a good size tank? Maybe a separate 20-30 gallon tank? Kind of sitting here going back and forth as I sit here and think about it. I like the idea of a DSB in my DT but the idea of a remote planted DSB really appeals to me also. With the benefit that I could start stocking my main DT in a few months...Guess more to think about

[Entropy]

Do you think it would be possible to cheat the six months by building a PVC/egg crate floor in the tank say at 4-6 inches in height that would be buried in the sand at the surface (basically under the sand but just enough so you don't see the egg crate). This would keep fish/hermits/etc from getting at anything deeper than the egg crate.

I can't stand the look of a DSB, but just a thought for those that want one.

[gibs]

I also don't really love the look of a DSB but I got interested in it because of the bio diversity and the benefits it brings to the tank. I am still really liking the idea but I think Patrick is right if you go with one you really need to let it populate and grow before adding anything that could possibly eat or destroy the sand fauna in the tank. Just my thoughts but there it is. I have been giving major thought though to doing a separate tank with a DSB plumbed into the same system. I have visions of a tank sitting beside my DT full of different macro algae LOL.

[subsea]

Remote deep sand beds (RDSB) in side-by-side tanks would be an awesome set up. The macro lagoon tank with the deep sand bed should drain back to the display tank. If there were no predator, this would be a perfect pod generator. Food from this refugium would drain back to the display tank without going thru pump impellers.

Just a thought. Have fun with the idea.

Patrick

[gibs]

Thanks again Patrick for all the advice! Even if I decide to ditch the DSB in my main DT all of your advice didn't go wasted or unappreciated I promise! Now that I am thinking of the idea I know I can't drill my main DT cause I have already been told that the back and bottom are tempered. What would be a good way of having the remote DSB/lagoon drain back to the main DT? I can see maybe setting up a siphon then have a overflow so that if siphon breaks it goes back to my refugium....just thinking out loud I guess. Probably have to recover from getting the main up but I got the idea in my head now......

[subsea]

Thanks again Patrick for all the advice! Even if I decide to ditch the DSB in my main DT all of your advice didn't go wasted or unappreciated I promise! Now that I am thinking of the idea I know I can't drill my main DT cause I have already been told that the back and bottom are tempered. What would be a good way of having the remote DSB/lagoon drain back to the main DT? I can see maybe setting up a siphon then have a overflow so that if siphon breaks it goes back to my refugium....just thinking out loud I guess. Probably have to recover from getting the main up but I got the idea in my head now......

Do not rely on a siphon. Locate RDSB water level above the water level in the DT. The bulkhead drain on RDSB refugium determines level in refugium. Consider volumn of water per inch in both display and refugium. In the worst case, when a snail clogs up drain from refugium, you do not want DT to overflow refugium. Locate your pump shallow enough to suck air before overflowing refugium. Have fun with the concept.

Patrick

[+Grog]

http://www.reefland....etable-filters/

I like combining a mud filter with a macro lagoon, or as Anthony Calfo says "Vegetable Filter.

Kind of off topic but, a great quote from the link you provided, "Be sure to always strain and discard the pack juices from thawed frozen foods; they are “rocket fuel” for nuisance algae!"

That is one of those things I wish I had known when I first started in the aquarium hobby.

I have a small colander which I use solely for this purpose.

[jaggedfire]

http://www.reefland....etable-filters/

I like combining a mud filter with a macro lagoon, or as Anthony Calfo says "Vegetable Filter.

Kind of off topic but, a great quote from the link you provided, "Be sure to always strain and discard the pack juices from thawed frozen foods; they are “rocket fuel” for nuisance algae!"

That is one of those things I wish I had known when I first started in the aquarium hobby.

I have a small colander which I use solely for this purpose.

I did in the begining...here is some more food for thought. None being gospel.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both By Randy Holmes-Farley, Ph.

After reading this I didnt worry to much about the phosphates. I am running a small 'fuge on the 25 gallon and I have my ups and downs with it...but i think it has been more due to the type of macro I am using, not the over abundance of phos. or nitrate. I due plan on running a dsb and macro in the new tank....if I get that far.

[Bpb]

That's an oddly compelling argument against wet food washing. Makes sense about phosphate being unavoidable. But it's odd that everyone swears up and down that frozen food contains so much phosphate in the packing liquid. Tough to know what to believe. Rinsing the cubes after thawing sure is a pain. Am I wasting my time? I always thought I was doing a good thing.

[Timfish]

. . . Am I wasting my time? . . .

This is another one of those topics I think doesn't have a absolute right or wrong answer. Since phosphate is a major issue I can see someone wanting to take every step to reduce it's input. Another individual may decide just to rely on a single product to remove it. A third person may may use algae and media for removal. What matters is are you happy with the end product and the cost/effort to achieve it.

[Timfish]

I must confess I have not read a lot of what's out there on DSB or mud systems but here's my two cents. When Micheal Paletta first descrbed Leng Sy's patanted "Ecosystem Method" I too was dubious (http://www.instantocean.com/Ocean-of-Knowledge/SeaScope/~/media/UPG/Files/Instant%20Ocean/SeaScope/Volume%2014_1997.ashx - you'll need to scroll down about half way). Further reading of R. J. Toonen's articles in FAMA revealed part of the "secret" was the high iron content of the marine mud used. As I understand it this is helping in two ways, since it is an imprtant trace element for algae it is helping macro algae growth in a refugium which helps remove phosphate and other nutrients from the water column and since it binds with phosphate it directly removes phosphate from the water like GFO will do. I am assuming this is why it is reccommended to replace a certain percentage of the mud periodicly. The one system I'm maintaining with a mud bed it is set up in a seperate refugium and after 4+ years the phospahtes are just this year starting to creep up necessitating a change out of a percentage of the mud.

Regarding Dr. Jaubert's deep sand bed methodology like some of the above comments I also do not like the amount of space it takes up in a DT and would not set it up in a DT unless it was designed from the beginning to accomidate and hide the 4-6 inches of sand.

As far as keeping urchins and hermits I prefer both to snails. In your 85 it is certainly large enough to support one or two Royal or Tuxedo Urchins. Here's a link to an article of some interesting research on urchins showing how beneficial they are to reefs in the wild, you'll need to scroll down about 3/4s the page to the article "Coral Reef Restoration": http://www.instantocean.com/Ocean-of-Knowledge/SeaScope/~/media/UPG/Files/Instant%20Ocean/SeaScope/Volume%2020_2003.ashx

[+KimP]

As far as keeping urchins and hermits I prefer both to snails. In your 85 it is certainly large enough to support one or two Royal or Tuxedo Urchins. Here's a link to an article of some interesting research on urchins showing how beneficial they are to reefs in the wild, you'll need to scroll down about 3/4s the page to the article "Coral Reef Restoration": http://www.instantocean.com/Ocean-of-Knowledge/SeaScope/~/media/UPG/Files/Instant%20Ocean/SeaScope/Volume%2020_2003.ashx

Not to derail the thread, but I'm curious why you don't like snails?