KevinB Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 EDIT: changed the title to better reflect where this discussion is going... So it has become obvious that I need to set up a quarantine/hospital tank. I need to treat my rabbitfish for ich and let my DT be fallow for a little over 2 months to kill the ich in there. My Hospital and QT tank is the following: 29 gallon, HOB biowheel filter, low power freshwater light. I'd like to quarantine any rocks and corals that come in for 8 week spans to prevent intrudicing ich again. I'd like for the QT tank to serve more than one purpose...maybe a fragging tank? I understand that I cannot move any rocks that have been in a copper treatment tank into the main tank, but I would like to keep some rock in the QT tank permenantly to help with filtration and stress for fish. I'm wondering if coral would survive the copper treatment? Is there anything else that would survive the treatment and be a good candidate to live in the QT tank? Or is there really no other option than a bare bones tank that you have to empty and clean after copper has been used? I understand copper does not go away in a QT tank, is it possible to maintain a level of copper that fish are slowly drip acclimated to before they go in? Or do you have to start from scratch for each fish's treatment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBReefer Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It is my understanging that Coral will not survive copper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Cooper is a heavy metal, like chromate and mercury. In the case of cooper and zinc, they are required in minute trace amounts to complete bioligical processes. Heavy concentrations of copper required to kill the itch parasite can not be tolerated by corals or bacteria. If you are going to use cooper, forgot about dual purpose. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Kevin, why not do a low salt treatment for itch and consider it a brackish water biotheme tank. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 I was just going to bring that up, Patrick. Are there any good resources for info on that type of setup? What about when I need to bring the tank back up to normal salinity? Will the bacteria, or higher life forms tolerate those types of salinity swings? Or would I need a third transitional tank for fish only? Also...are there certain types of fish that don't do well with hyposalinity? I like the idea of a brackish tank with live rock stacked up on one side that would breach the surface and keeping some fiddler crabs and small brackish dither fish in there, I'm just concerned that I'll have to keep it as an unstable environment in terms of salinity, in order to acclimate and treat new fish for my main tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaarrrggg Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It was my understanding that subjecting LR to the hypo needed to kill ich would also kill everything on it, thus resulting in a nutrient spike...? I could be wrong about this and tbh I hope I am, because I'd really like to be able to keep LR in my QT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+dapettit Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hmmm, I always thought live rock and any kind of filtration was a no-no. The issues is the little beggars can hide in the live rock and the media of the filtration system. Now the QT tank is infected. Or, it could be outdate info. Dave- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+dapettit Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Well after a little googling I found I am wrong. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 I'm ok with killing the rock on the first go around to help cycle the tank...I 'shouldnt' kill the bacteria, or if it does I'm sure another will take over. I am reasonably confident in being able to kill ich in hypo despite rocks being in there. But I don't think there's anything but fish that could cope with the salinity changes of treating for ich and them getting acclimated for a reef tank. Hopefully I'm wrong. I guess my other option would be to split the 29 gallon with 2/3 being the quarantine tank, ang the other 1/3 being the salinity adjustment tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Between doing a hyposaline tank and treating with copper I would go with hyposaline. There is stuff that will survive and even thrive in hyposaline or brackish tanks that will not tolerate copper at the levels needed to treat for ich. I would not use premium live rock but one of the liverock products that has a lot of bacteria and some higher life forms, not a lot of coraline or large sponge colonies or a lot of macro algaes as they typically will not tolerate either. Copper is probably the most effective way of treating for ich but it is important to maintain the proper dosage and what I don't like is many of the benifecial organism that maintain an ecosystem connot tolerate it so long term it requires closer monitoring and more maintenance to maintain water quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 I'm definately leanIng toward hypo Tim, the real question is what kind of life can live in a tank that goes from brackish to saltwater and back again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Many critters will thrive in a brackish system that swings to full strength. Befor talking about this system, lets treat for itch first. Isolate fish with copper treatment a minimum of two weeks in a bare bones tank with no substrate. Transfer fish to brackish system for two months. At end of two months adjust fsh to full strength saltwter. I am sure you could bring brackish system to full strength with no damage to system. However, why bring complete brackish tank up to full strength salt when only the fish needs to be brought back to the dislay tank. You have time to plan your biotheme brackish tank while your Rabbit is soaking in copper. La bonne temp roulee. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 There are some others who know more specifics on brackish and it's been a while since I used brackish or hyposaline systems but a surprising amount of animals tolerate it. A lot of the small shrimps and 'pods on live rock will tolerate it as well as some of the cryptic or scavenging type worms. some of the aglaes too will go back and forth unfortunately the cynobacteria are really good at tolerating the change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Patrick are you saying I should not bring the qt tank up to DT salinity? If so, where should I house the fish for the salinity change? Also, the point of the brakish system was as a treatment for ich...is there a need to treat with copper if the fish is going to be in a hypo brackish tank for 3 months? By the way I'm in new Orleans right now enjoying the food...there's a shop at the hotel that reminds me of you every time I pass it, it's called lagniappe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Green spotted pufferfish will survive in FW, brackish, and SW. You could keep it in the QT to keep it cycled while not using it. They are pretty small and pretty cheap. I have one that has lived in my fuge maybe going on 3 years now. It was my first saltwater fish, bought it for $5 at RCA. They do not do well with copper and are ich magnets, but in brackish water this shouldn't be a problem. Seems like if you cycled it brackish/hypo and kept it that way that you would still have all the beneficial bacteria needed to keep the parameters leveled out. This would be a cycled hyposalinity tank once you are done....that is a GREAT idea. As long as you never raised or lowered the salinity you wouldn't kill off your bacteria. So you could have live rock in hypo it would die off mostly first and then colonize with bacteria that can live in lower salinity. Am I missing something here? I'm going to think hard about doing this myself, excellent idea Kevin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Kevin, get you some more laignaippe. I would agree with you, that it is unessary to treat with copper using this technique. This would be a much more holistic approach to fish cures. If you apply that logic, then this would work as a quarantine with incoming fish and as a hospital for sick fish. I like it like that. With respect to bringing fish back to full strength, I do it in two hours. Even if you wanted to drip adjust, I see no reason to go more than six hours. You could do this in a five gallon bucket? In effect, you would have two display tanks. Win/Win. La bonne temps roulee. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 That's great to hear Patrick, for some reason I was thinking days! That makes the idea of a permenant brackish quarantine tank viable. I like the idea of keeping a puffer in there, but I also like fiddler crabs lol. I guess I'll have to choose there. I do want something that's going to be welcoming to new fish, not too territorial. I'm thinking about something like a brackish tidal pool with a low fish load. If it did have some permenant fish in it, is it safe to say that as long as the SG was at 1.009, any ich introduced would die within a month or so? If a new fish comes in with ich, it should die out, then the qt tank would be ich free again and the fish could move to the display tank. Is there other meds I will need to use for new fish that would be a bad idea to use in a brackish display tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaarrrggg Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 That's interesting about the LR being ok in hypo. Hmmm I might leave some in my QT then. Thx guys! I wouldn't recommend green spotted puffers for this. From what I've read, it sounds like in the wild they travel from low to high salinity as they grow. So an adult needs full SW to be happy. (Disclaimer: I could be wrong! Just happened to do some research into GSPs a while back and that was what I came away with.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I think that you can use mollies too for brackish. My little puffer is only 2" long or so, its mouth is tiny. A decent sized fiddler crab would be more than it could handle. Mine is in with a huge hermit crab and he never goes after him. Snails on the other hand don't stand a chance. From what I understand the ich will die off, burst actually, once it leaves this fish to reproduce. Some of the ich on the fish will be killed right away too but not what's burrowed deep in the skin. This is the same thing that copper does, what sucks is that this is the reason that hypo and copper really don't help a fish for a few days. Hypo and copper keep the ich from reattaching by killing the free swimming life cycle. Don't use any antibiotics in the tank but you should be able to use prazi pro which is for intestinal parasites, its not supposed to effect the biological filtration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 That's interesting about the LR being ok in hypo. Hmmm I might leave some in my QT then. Thx guys! I wouldn't recommend green spotted puffers for this. From what I've read, it sounds like in the wild they travel from low to high salinity as they grow. So an adult needs full SW to be happy. (Disclaimer: I could be wrong! Just happened to do some research into GSPs a while back and that was what I came away with.) +1 They are considered brackish fish but actually live longer in saltwater. I belive this considering that these fish usually don't live more than 2 years in captivity in brackish or freshwater, like I said mine is going on 3 years now. I've read that the diseases that usually kill them don't live in SW. What a pig he is, he can eat a whole krill and looks like a ping pong ball after he is fed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBReefer Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Interesting discussion as I took my QT to 1.009 several months ago to treat for ich and will leave it in hypo. I do have LR and have put some mean hermit crabs in from my DT. When my quarantine is up 3-4 weeks, I drip acclimatize for 3+ hours and then add....Not a problem yet. I did a lot on internet research and ran across this research paper in regards to treating ich...great research article. http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164 I went the hypo route and has also considered going the Chloroquine route. Here is another link to the benefits of hyposalinity. http://www.advanceda...com/2007/6/fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Thanks for the info, going to read it. Did you say you have hermits in hypo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBReefer Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Yes...I put one in last week and he is still kicking. Their movement slows down and eventually he will die (I believe). But wil have to wait and see... Hydro- I know your settig up your hospital tanks and both of those links convince my to go hypo with my QT/hospital tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I like this idea, I have done this to some degree with a 10 gallon tank and smaller fish. Although generally not feasible for large populations, large or complex systems, or weak or debilitated fish, one approach that has been suggested is transfer of affected fish into new, bare bottom tanks every 3 days (Colorni 1987). Tanks are cleaned, disinfected (see Disinfection below), and dried between moves. This approach reduces or prevents tomont development on the substrates, and subsequent reinfection. Depending upon temperature, fish may need to be moved 3–5 times. Yes...I put one in last week and he is still kicking. Their movement slows down and eventually he will die (I believe). But wil have to wait and see... Hydro- I know your settig up your hospital tanks and both of those links convince my to go hypo with my QT/hospital tank. Well I was getting on board with the hypo but then I read this Hyposalinity refers to exposure of fish to a salt concentration that is lower than that in which they normally live (typical tropical marine systems range between 30–35 g/L (g/L=ppt)). Lower salinities are less easily tolerated by many common marine tropical species, which prefer a tighter range of salinity (stenohaline). Some fish don't tolerate copper well and some fish don't tolerate hypo well. I guess you have to consider exactly what fish you are treating. Also I read that with hypo there is a chance that some ich can still live, with copper it can not. They say that copper is the best method for treating but I really like the cycled hypo QT though. I'm going to do more research on the type of fish that I plan on QTing and see if they are copper sensitive or hypo sensitive...or both. Timfish I know that you have used hypo in the past, any of your fish have a problem with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Yes...I put one in last week and he is still kicking. Their movement slows down and eventually he will die (I believe). But wil have to wait and see... Hydro- I know your settig up your hospital tanks and both of those links convince my to go hypo with my QT/hospital tank. So are you maintaining a permanent QT tank in hypo? Have you thought about adding dither fish or other fish of a sort? I've read blue legged hermits do fine in brackish conditions. I'm also considering mangroves, but that means an open top and pendant light, and I don't really want to go that route. I read that water sprite does well, I Think plants would be beneficial for filtration, nutrient export, and stress relief for new fish. I kind of like the look of the scats, a small school would be cool looking. I know I said bare bottom, but in thinking about it some more, I think I'd want 1" or less of fine aragonite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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