Cyano

[pabloescolar]

Can anyone with a more advanced understanding of chemistry and biology help me understand why there is no possible link between cyanoacrylate glue and cyanobacteria?

I've been attempting to conduct my own research on the topic but am dead ending at understanding the chemical composition of cyanoacrylate glue. I do understand that the cyano in cyanobacteria is a reference to a pigment, and while that doesn't seem to hint at any relationship to cyanoacrylate, I can't find any sufficient explanation in forum discussions other than "Nah definitely not the same" which isn't really an answer.

This is prompted by the fact that I glued something down yesterday, and tonight am witnessing what is either diatoms that produce bubbles, cyanobacteria that produces bubbles, or dinos that produce bubbles...... the internet is real divided on that, too. [emoji53]

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[LarryD]

The cyano in cyanoacrylate comes from the presence of the CN pair (carbon and nitrogen) which by itself is commonly referred to as cyanide. The cyano in Cyanobacteria comes from its colour which can be close to the cyan ink in your printer.

Hopefully this helps and if some chemist comes along to tell me I am wrong I welcome the learning experience.

[victoly]

+1 larry. they are in no way related.

[stoneroller]

Let's see the bubbles.

[Reburn]

I can't find any sufficient explanation in forum discussions other than "Nah definitely not the same" which isn't really an answer.

One is a bacteria, a living organism with DNA and all.

One is a man made chemical that occurs nowhere in nature.

Other than a similar name I don't understand how you could confuse the two. Sorry not trying to be a jerk but "nah they definitely not the same" is a perfect answer here.

[Sascha D.]

The color cyan is not red, it's formed by mixing blue and green. Also known as aqua.

[Reeferman]

This has to be the greatest post i have ever read on this forum...smh

[pabloescolar]

Lol, thanks for the answers from those that provided them. Reeferman, it seems kind of strange to jump on a thread for the exclusive purpose of dumping on somebody, but I guess the internet is a strange place.

The root of my question wasn't are they the same thing, but is there a potential connection. I did some additional searching after LarryD answered but haven't had time to sit down and respond with what I read yet. You know the saying "only knows enough to be dangerous"? Well I know even less than that, lol! But I'm curious and trying to learn. To my mind "Nah they're not related because...." is a much better and more interesting answer than "Nah they're not related."

FWIW, the TL;DR version of my wildly inexpert analysis below is still "Nah they're probably not related." I would love it if a chemist or biologist would dismantle or explain what I read up on.

None of these very shaky connections are necessarily good pieces of evidence, but it was enough to keep me digging to see if I could find an answer.

Cyanides do occur in nature, and the blue pigment cyanobacteria is named after is the result of the presence of a cyanide ion. Cyan itself was first named after creating an iron-cyanide pair that resulted in the blue pigment that we know as Prussian Blue. The purple or red color we see in cyanobacteria in our systems is additional pigmentation created to protect the cells from degradation by UV light, and by way of iron uptake during the bacterial process. I think this is called a ferrocyanide compound, but I'm still not sure if they pigmentation and what we see in the bacteria are the same thing. Interestingly, some forms of cyanobacterias have been used scientifically to detoxify cyanide, by using it as a biological source of food.

When I learned this, my question became "Does the curing process of cyanoacrylate glue create a bioavailable source of cyanide significant enough to feed a bacterial bloom?"

Cyanoacrylate glues vary widely in their total chemical composition. Different additives are used to create different qualities, such as time control, thickness, elastomeric properties, etc. I didn't try to figure out what these additional additives put into the water column because information is scant, and even if I could find it would sprawl so far past my initial question. So for cyanoacrylate glue in its most basic form, what is it releasing when the polymerization chain begins? The best answer I could find to the question is cyanoacrylate monomers, which ostensibly would remain suspended in the water column. We've all smelled the noxious fumes coming off of CA glue during the dry time, and in fact with prolonged and unsafe exposure levels some people become allergic to the CA monomers that are being released! However, the sources I found suggested that these monomers become inert when in contact with moisture, so I don't think they'd be available for an organic reaction. Even if they were, there are a tremendous number of other factors. There are many other sources of available fuel for the cyanobacterial bloom, and I have no idea whether or not the polymerization chain would produce a significant enough number of these monomers, even if they were reactive.

Cyanobacteria itself is pretty fascinating, and is credited with creating the oxygen rich environment we experience on earth, and the near extinction of anaerobic organisms. It's used in industry, agriculture and scientific environments for its nitrogen fixing qualities. At one point, it was the most abundant organism on the face of the earth. Wowza.

The overarching motive behind this fools errand I ran was ultimately trying to find a scientific basis for an answer. I have only very briefly been in this hobby, but as we've all experienced, the reef forums across the web (not necessarily this one) have an incredible amount of contradictory information! Marine biology is a science, and while I'm nothing like a marine biologist, learning the root causes and relationships within these little ecosystems we create is one of my favorite parts of the hobby. It is endlessly fascinating.

I saw on a tank build thread that parasuta is a trained marine biologist, is there a way for me to tag them on this post to see if they might weigh in?

Many of you on here have already been a tremendous source of knowledge and guidance and I think it's really cool this community exists. It's a really deeply fascinating hobby to me, and I never expected to be a part of it.

Here are the links of all the different sources I read to try and gain some understanding on the topic, if anyone cares to do a deep dive or critique what I think I've learned!

http://cronodon.com/BioTech/Cyanobacteria.html

http://www.britannica.com/science/cyanoacrylate

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296057/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue

http://research.omicsgroup.org/index.php/Cyan

http://research.omicsgroup.org/index.php/Prussian_blue

http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/9101O6FY.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=1986%20Thru%201990&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C86THRU90%5CTXT%5C00000030%5C9101O6FY.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h%7C-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=p%7Cf&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=6

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amine

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Super-Glue.html

http://www.chemistryexplained.com/A-Ar/Adhesives.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetate

[FarmerTy]

Wonderful response sir! The quest for knowledge is always admirable and commendable, as well as staying strong in the face of those that don't share your desire for knowledge.

I don't think Parasuta is a Marine Biologist but he/she mentions that they are a biologist. Either case, par for course enough to probably answer your question. I'm an ex-scientist but I only like to speak on subjects I have thorough knowledge on so unless you're talking remediation/assessment of environmental issues, then I'm not your guy. Heck, I've forgotten most of that stuff by now too!

[victoly]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phycocyanin. The primary photosynthetic pigment in cyanobacteria does not contain any cyanide at all. It is referencing the blue/green color. They are not related. They share a similar root word and that is literally all they share.

"Cyanides do occur in nature, and the blue pigment cyanobacteria is named after is the result of the presence of a cyanide ion."
This statement is not a true statement.

[pabloescolar]

Thanks for the explanation victoly, that is a great answer. I'd have to backtrack on my reading to see where I made a faulty connection but I'm glad to have a resolution.

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[Neon Reefer]

^{The curing process and bonding effects of “superglue” is one of polymerization which is the reaction of small molecules combining to form very strong brittle bonds thru the process of polarization. This is a form of Electro-Chemistry or specifically Polymer-Chemistry, not Bio or non-Bio Chemistry Part of the structure of cyanoacrylates is C=C. This double bond of the carbon molecules is where the actual mechanism involves polarization by a negative ion as found in utilizing groups like methyl and ethyl acrylate. These types of reactions have no bi-products such as the releasing of carbon atoms into the environment. This is the main reason they are safe to introduce into the aquarium during the curing process without any detrimental effects to the environment. Therefore with the absence of any known elements particularly carbon being introduced to the aquarium there is no food source either whole or partial which would feed a bacteria of any kind including cyano bacteria where the prefix “cyano” indicates only it’s blue green natural color. The only known bi-product of these reactions is heat. There are proprietary chemical additives to different types of ”super glues” used to accelerate the polymerization rate or speed in which it dries. For more info on this subject try googling anionic addition polymerization.}

^{I hope this is a more complete answer to if there is a relationship between adding "superglue" to the aquarium and starting a cyano-algae outbreak.}

^Andre

[+BobcatReefer]

Soooooo, the best way to handle cyano is to increase flow and decrease lighting for a couple of days? I ask because I've got red slime all over the place right now.

[Dan H]

Yes that is a good plan of attack. You can also add more bacteria.

[Reburn]

What are your parameters. Are you testing p04 with a Hanna?

[+BobcatReefer]

What are your parameters. Are you testing p04 with a Hanna?

Yessir - PO4 is .04

[Reburn]

Yep then increased flow and reduced lighting.

[+BobcatReefer]

How reduced? 1/2 normal? 1/3?

I use this light: http://www.aquaticlife.com/light-fixtures/four-lamp-t5-ho and run:

9:00-9:00 blue

11:00-7:00 white

I assume the night LED have no effect?

I'm running my pump at full volume and have placed both powerheads as close to the sandbed as possible.

[Reburn]

I would cut the blue down to a max of 9 hrs and the whites down to a max of 6 hrs. IMO permanently. The nighttime LEDs shunt have any effect but I would only run mine for 2 hours or so.

[+BobcatReefer]

Gotcha. Done and done.