Very sad and PO

[Beaux]

I started off with this gal when I first wanted to know what it was. A torch coral. It instantly became my favorite type of coral.

She grew, ( the stalk) and I though I was doing everything right, it's tentacles just started shrinking in until it would only extend to 1/8 of an inch, and today died. I had her for 1 year 8 months.

I have bought more, yellow tip, a couple of browns while I had the first one, only have to have them wither away in a matter of months.

Can someone please give me a direction as to what parameters torches need to make it? What am I missing?

I have listened to all the LFS advice and have **** near duplicated the parameters they give me at a consistent.

I have watched 1000's of videos that only contradict everything they say. Parameters, flow keep them on the bottom, give them lots of space.

I go into the LFS and see some that have 0 moment and others blowing around like they are in a cyclone!

These are supposed to be beginner corals????

Would someone with some long term keeping torchs please point me in a direction, advice? Anything other than just giving up on reefing all together.

My numbers have always been acceptable, I keep my records and double check them with Francis at RCA.

Do I need the $1000.00 lights because the ones I have, the fluvals I was informed were more than adequate for torchs.

I do not have a par meeter so that is the only thing I can not check.

Should I just give even trying?

 

[stoneroller]

I keep several Euphyllia but not torch coral per se. Most of mine are from hobbyist-cultured stock; some of which have been in the hobby for close to two decades. I keep water parameters so my acros are happy and euphyllia (and everything else) are along for the ride. They are doing well up high, down low, all with moderate to fast current. I do spot feed with Coral Frenzy every month or so. So my advice is to find stock that has been grown in captivity and spot feed.

[Timfish]

Sorry to hear about it's demise. 🙁  

 

I do have a few thoughts.  One fascinating thing I'v elearned that has helped me understand why stuff doesn't do well even though everything "should be" right is corals have been shown to have a decadal memery, they actually learn and memorize the conditions they grew in and changes that one specimen of given species/genotype may be indifferent to, another specimen of same species/genotype may find it unacceptable and it may never thrive.   (This decadal memory is at the polyp level and polyps in different locations in the same colony can react differently.)

Each species we keep also has many different genotypes and each genotype has different simbionts and different degrees of adaptability and tolerance to bacterial infections.

Did your torch ever split?  If it never split in the year and half you had it that would be a very good indicator it was never happy with your system in the first place. 

So short answer is what Stoneroller said, get local corals that are doing well under similar conditions to your system.

[stoneroller]

PS. Without knowing if it truly works as advertised, I dose KZ LPS amino acids. Have for years and seems to work for me and my LPS. 

what? decadal memory in corals? I found this https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00227-014-2596-2

 

[Beaux]

PS. Without knowing if it truly works as advertised, I does KZ LPS amino acids. Have for years and seems to work for me and my LPS. 
what? decadal memory in corals? I found this https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00227-014-2596-2
 

Thanks for the input folks, and putting up with my ranting.

I looked over that link about rotations, very interesting.

As I added more stoney corals, my candy canes is when I really started monitoring the calicum. I had not dosed because the "premium" water I always get from RCA have alwas had a stable range on the calicum.

I tried spot feeding with brine at first but the clowns always attacked the torches. Then the rave of reef roids at 0 flow and flush feeding. Neither of which any of them seemed to accept.

The one in the photo had over an inch of tentacles and even longer of the white extended ones. It did puke a few times, but stopped once it started to recede.

I might try with the product you suggested, but was considering hammer heads, as they are supposedly a beginner coral as well. Or do you think I will have the same issues with them?

I want flow and movement, any suggestions? Tried pulsing xenia but could not get the flow right before they all died off


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[jolt]

I have keep frogspawn for quite a while, but not torches.   Like stoneroller, I keep my water right for acropora coral and everything else is along for the ride.  I think Stoneroller gave you some great advice - maybe find a torch from a hobbyist who has kept it a long time already, so it is used to being in an aquarium.  

[Reefpuck]

I have 3 different torches and 3 different frogspawns....frogspawns have always looked expanded and awesome...but my torches don't seem to expand like they used to a few months ago. I did change a pump in the tank and have a lot more flow now...so suspect that might be the issue...although they don't look like they're being blown around too much.

I would think all pieces in the euphylia class would act the same to parameters.

Have you tried moving the torches? Did you change any equipment recently? New salt mix or dosing something different?

 

[Beaux]

I have 3 different torches and 3 different frogspawns....frogspawns have always looked expanded and awesome...but my torches don't seem to expand like they used to a few months ago. I did change a pump in the tank and have a lot more flow now...so suspect that might be the issue...although they don't look like they're being blown around too much.
I would think all pieces in the euphylia class would act the same to parameters.
Have you tried moving the torches? Did you change any equipment recently? New salt mix or dosing something different?
 

Thanks for the reply Reefpuck,
That first one was doing great on the first placement. Then I noticed it started to retreat with the tenticals, but the calicum base was growing.
I kept my calcium in check always use the same prieum water from RCA, and even check the parameters to check that they were as close to my tank water. I stll do this everytime.

I did video research, again conflicting about feeding or not. I chose not to because that was the only (hard) coral, and I did not have a skimmer. I moved it up about 2 to 3 inches, thinking it was the lighting. I also added my 10 gallon sump tank, as well as a skimmer.

It was still haning in there but I could see that it was still not doing well, but well out lasted the other torches that died within months.

I am going to try a hammerhead in my 55. The current is medium to low, just enough that it gives it a mild to moderate good circular motion.

Like I asked before with only one stony coral, everything else is soft, should I just stay away from feeding all together?

Other than that, I only have one dead zone because of my live rock setting, but I vacuum that area every 2 to 3 days. Not as a water chage, just the one area along with my weekly changes. Could my water be to clean?

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[Beaux]

Thanks for the reply Reefpuck,
That first one was doing great on the first placement. Then I noticed it started to retreat with the tenticals, but the calicum base was growing.
I kept my calcium in check always use the same prieum water from RCA, and even check the parameters to check that they were as close to my tank water. I stll do this everytime.

I did video research, again conflicting about feeding or not. I chose not to because that was the only (hard) coral, and I did not have a skimmer. I moved it up about 2 to 3 inches, thinking it was the lighting. I also added my 10 gallon sump tank, as well as a skimmer.

It was still haning in there but I could see that it was still not doing well, but well out lasted the other torches that died within months.

I am going to try a hammerhead in my 55. The current is medium to low, just enough that it gives it a mild to moderate good circular motion.

Like I asked before with only one stony coral, everything else is soft, should I just stay away from feeding all together?

Other than that, I only have one dead zone because of my live rock setting, but I vacuum that area every 2 to 3 days. Not as a water chage, just the one area along with my weekly changes. Could my water be to clean?

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Oh and as far as dosing my Kh was off a bit so i started that last month.

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[stoneroller]

If you are south sometime, stop by and I'll give you a head or two of hammer coral that has been in captivity for years...

[Beaux]

If you are south sometime, stop by and I'll give you a head or two of hammer coral that has been in captivity for years...

Thank you very much stoneroller.
Perhaps we could work something out if we ever get a date for our frag swap! LOL

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[Timfish]

Your comment about keeping Xenia caught my attention.   I have the generic, Silver and Pom Pom and none of them are too particular about water flow.  The generic, from my experience could really care less, it's much more a light intensity (not so much spectrum) to get good pulsing but they do fine in lower light levels if pulsing isn't much of an issue.

Exactly what are your water parameters?  What is your lighting? 

[Beaux]

Hey Timfish,
I am thinking more this being a mistake on my part by moving them around to much.

It was early on and I had that can't keep hand out of tank syndrome.

Also grasping the dynamics of adding new corals can completely alter the flow as a whole.

I have learned a better lesson of let the coral be, and adjust my wave makers.

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[Timfish]

If this helps, keep in mind every time a corals is moved it has to make changes to it's photobiology and it takes weeks to months, depending on species, for these changes to be done (and as pointed out in the paper Stoneroller posted and I mentioned some may never adjust).  

And for future reference if you get more Xenia here's a video showing water and lighting conditions it tolerates:

Lighting varies from low to bright, ~25 to ~230 PAR. Estimated color temperature is around 13000K.  Flow varies from nonexistant to very high in front of the return line.

 

[Isaac]

some questions... what are your water parameters?  what do you dose, feed, and how? what kind of flow are they in? what lights do you have? how far down are the corals from the water level?  do you have any algae blooms? do you have a health amount of coraline (its not directly related, but gives us an idea of the tank's maturity/stability)?  help us build your environment so we have a better idea on what to try.

[Beaux]

My water perameters have always been well within acceptable ranges. I use aqdiary app that is like a permanent diary  of what day it was tested, slots for all the results and water changes.

I often do the test first, then take a water sample to have tested by my LFS to double check my readings match.

Only once, very early on as I was learning how to test for calicum it did not match. My calcium testef 650  when the LFS tested at 450.

I do not dose anything because my tank is 90% soft corals. At the time I had only the 1 torch, single head, and 1 branch of candy cane with 3 heads. Which as of today is still flourishing and I can see growth. 

I have not dosed calcium because the peramiters were well within range and I had no "hard" corals in that tank.

I buy the premium salt water which I have always use from one LFS.

As far as feeding, I started general feeding mysis shrimp. They never seem to stick and I never really noticed anything being retracted in. It either drifted off or was picked off by my clown fish. I use Jabeo wave makers which has a setting to a timer of 10 minutes of 0 flow for feeding. Tried both ways several times, same results. 

Then my LFS suggested brine shrimp. Same results.

Did some research online and started using reef roids. General aimed spray at the candy cane and torch. Feed reccomend dose 1x weekly.

Flow was medium to low so there was a nice clockwise motion, not something that was slamming it abruptly to one side or another.

Lighting as I mentioned before, Fluval sea 2.0.

Placement is at bottom of my 20 gallon long, in the substrate. 

The tank is going on 2 and 1/2 years now after cycle.

My coraline covers about 90% of my live rock in both main tank and sump.

No algae outbreaks except very early on I had a moderate outbreak of Cyno. I have no coraline on my glass or equipment anywhere.

I keep a healthy stock 10 to 15 blueleg crabs, same with snails, (always having to up keep,  crabs killing snails, as well as a few niarasso (sp) snails.

My coraline,  if that is what I think you mean by the red covering on my live rock is a medium to deep red in color.

One medium piece in my sump is so dark, it appears purple.

My lighting is not suspended but rather sits on the rim of the tank. I have a marker set so that for what ever reason I have to move it, it is set back to its original position.  Also it is set with a very reliable timer. Although there is no way to ramp it. 

I am still on the hunt for the $100 adapter but with the 2.0 being discontinued I am having no luck. They came out with the Fluval 3.0 which is built in.

Probably alot more than you asked for, but did I miss anything?

 

 

[Isaac]

yea, but what are the numbers. "acceptable" really depends on perception and your target environment.  some keep ultra low nutrients, some keep ~5-10 nitrate, some dont mind 40!, etc.  basic stuff you need to check when something starts going weird is ammonia and nitrites.  we always assume they are in cycle properly, but something might have caused it to break and restart.  check phosphate, if its too high, things really dont like it.  whats your salinity at? what did you use to measure it?  do you run a skimmer or anything else for aeration? what is your top off water source? do you run any reactors? carbon/gfo/pellets/etc? what brand food are you using... etc.  when was the last time you cleaned your pumps?..... basically... start from the beginning, assume nothing.

aside from snails/crabs.. what other livestock do you have?

i inherited that same light w/ my new 40g tank, ebay has the wifi adapter from 30-90bux. (i got mine for 45, gotta be patient and pounce).  search for "fluval A3976"  if you are going to buy a new light, dont go w/ a fluval if you dont have to... there are much better chinese black boxes that are a hell of a lot better, imho (i have a black box on my frag tank).

i dont have any torches in that tank yet, but the mushrooms and chalice look ok... havnt seen much growth (only been about 2-3 weeks now).  in my main tank, the torches and hammers love brs reef chili and polyplab reefroids.   sometimes its better to feed smaller amounts daily, as opposed to the full amount weekly.