Coral feeding - really confused about what to buy

[Clark]

I have no clue what I'm doing wrt feeding my coral and what supplements they may need. I've read some articles that mention several live foods and trace elements but when I look at shelf products I get all confused by the buzz words. I need someone to look at my inventory and recommend effective products and a feeding schedule please. I probably seem lazy but honestly I just can't translate Borne to Kent.

Corals in my tank are:

* mushrooms

* colt corals

* a tiny branch of montipora

* a small plate of bleaching montipora (would like to try again)

* a green star polyp frag

* a small fungia plate

* a small torch

* a small group of palys (from Sherita, no idea what palys are, look similar to button polyps)

Also have an RBT anenome, a lawnmower blenny, and a dartfish all doing well. I feed the anenome and fungia small bits of table shrimp every week or two.

I have a Squirt for direct feeding if necessary. I have good LED lighting and a good understanding of that side of things.

I currently have half a bottle of CoralVite and Phytoplex in stock. I add Aragomilk regularly and keep Ca and Mg up.

Any help would be appreciated!

[jestep]

If you have good lighting, you technically won't need to feed anything to the coral in your tank. WHat you're doing now sounds just fine, you can feed the torch also. Spot feeding with shrimp or mysis or other frozen prepared foods can greatly increase growth, but it's usually not necessary.

You could also switch to rods or another good frozen blend and the coral get fed passively every time you feed your fish. My coral go crazy when I use rods, especially the LPS and BTA's.

[victoly]

+2 to jamie. None of the corals you listed require feeding.

[Timfish]

What they said. Corals pull ammonium, urea, nitrates and phosphates out of the water to feed their Symbodinium spp. dinoflagellates (zooxanthellae) and many probably also feed off bacteria and fecal matter. Here's some links if you're interested:

Phosphate uptake in corals http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full

Ammonium uptake: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/1979/00000029/00000004/art00011

Nitrate uptake: http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_48/issue_6/2266.html

Fish as major carbonate producers http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/3865

Effects of Anemone fish on anemones: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10236240500057929#.UpS4pyeJ7Mo

[Clark]

Coral feed on phosphate? Did I make a big mistake putting Chemi Pure Elite in my canister filter? Soon after, all hair algae disappeared and my rockwork is spotless. I thought this was a good thing.

[Jpowell490]

Chemi Pure Elite is one of the best products I have ever seen, lol. Maybe it is the GFO in it, but it does wonders for phosphates, etc.

Nah, leave that in there. With the corals you mentioned, don't take this the wrong way, but water quality won't be of primary concern. Almost everything you listed likes a bit of dirty water.

[Timfish]

I use chemi pure elite also but not on a continuous basis. You definitely do not want to drop your phosphates too low, it will kill your corals faster than having phosphates too high.

[FarmerTy]

Clark, like everyone else said, no feeding needed. Just do your usual water changes and you are set.

[Clark]

Good to hear. Thanks all. I'm keen to try that Rod's original pretty soon. Flakes are pretty boring.

Clark

[Clark]

I use chemi pure elite also but not on a continuous basis. You definitely do not want to drop your phosphates too low, it will kill your corals faster than having phosphates too high.

Whoops. I missed your comment, Tim. I think the CPE drove phosphate firmly to zero and is going to keep it there. My phosphate test kit shows very zero. <biting nails again> One thing is for sure, my beautiful coraline algae went from thriving to bleaching/retreating. Although I had a very bad low temperature event that lasted several weeks simultaneously to adding CPE. Temp is fine now and under precise digital control at 79.

Everything I read has been driving it home that "phosphate needs to be zero." When people post their parameters, always its phos = 0. There are so many products out there designed to do that. I'm losing my mind again!

[FarmerTy]

I wouldn't believe the 0.0 PO4 reading if you are looking at color scales. I read 0.0 for the longest time until I got a Hanna Meter. Then I realized my 0.0 is really 0.8 ppm. At 0.0, most of your corals would not look so good and some of your dirtier water loving corals would probably have died already. I know LPS aren't usually the biggest fans of your ultra low nutrient systems (ULNS) that have extremely low PO4 concentrations (<0.02ish).

For reference Clark, my tank usually runs at 0.03 PO4 when everything plays nice and you've at least seen my tank. Hope that helps.

[jestep]

You're sort of opening up a huge information door with the PO4. To be very brief, yes you need PO4 in the tank, for both coral growth and nitrate reduction. However, there are 2 types of PO4 in a tank, 1 of which you aren't measuring for. Also, your test kit is probably not accurate enough to truly read 0 PO4. More than likely you're totally fine as-is.

Lowering it slowly and then keeping it consistent is the biggest goal. If you wait too long to replace the GFO or CPE you get PO4 bounces which aren't good either. As Ty states LPS prefer a messier tank. Since you're not doing a bunch of SPS, lower PO4 would really be a goal for algae control rather than coral health.

[Timfish]

. . . Everything I read has been driving it home that "phosphate needs to be zero." When people post their parameters, always its phos = 0. . .

Yeah and I find it very annoying although I guess it depends on what test kit is being used. Too high phosphates can cause troubles but in my experience it has to be 2, 3 or 4 ppm before it starts interfering with corals ability to deposit calcium (do not construe this as an endorsement for leaving high phosphates). Dropping phosphates also will retard algae growth but it seems it's never mentioned that includes the symbodinium spp dinoflagellates (and in some cases cyanobacteria for nitrate production) corals are hosting. Here's two interesting comments by Charles Delbeek:

"When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient systems I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs" and he goes on to say "Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle". Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127 paragraphs 2 & 3.

It is true you can make corals more colorful by starving them so they can not grow their symbionts but understand this by reducing their brown symbiotic dinoflagellates. (I equate this to what we have done to some of the dog and cat breeds, it may be "attractive" but it assures increased health issues). Also keep in mind the fluorescing and chromo protiens that give corals their bright pigmentation are tightly controlled by light (think of them as a coral's version of a suntan) and just by reducing the symbiotic algae does not assure a prettier coral if the light spectrum and/ or intensity is incorrect for the desired protien(s).

As far as your original post, like the first couple people said don't worry about your corals, the ones you have are known for being hardy and adaptable. Long term your best odds of success as you add additional animals will be to get animals that have been grown under the same conditions you have in your tank, ie "Keep Austin Weird!"

(If you don't have a copy of Delbeek and Sprungs "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III I would encourage you to get it. It's available on ibooks and I would also encourage you to subscribe to "Coral", most articles are written by professional scientists in their field of research.)

[FarmerTy]

Couldn't have said it better Jestep!

[Clark]

On the PO4 front, I'll throttle back on the Chemi Pure Elite until I have an algae problem again 'cause it works great for that. Actually, my blenny, crabs, and snails would probably be grateful for a little algae. CPE also helps stabilize PH but I watch my KH buffer and CA pretty close as well so I got that covered.

Thanks so much everyone!

[Sascha D.]

I agree with everyone that has responded so far. You can feed your anemone but the corals will be fine with light only. I would also like to add something about phosphates and food.

On food, 99% of all phosphates are introduced into the aquarium during water changes (if you don't filter) and daily feedings. If you overfeed, then your phosphates will go through the roof. I used a product called Phytoplan once to feed my corals and so much of it went uneatten that I got a HUGE spike, followed by an equally huge algae bloom. Choosing a good food is important but controlled feeding is more important.

On phosphates, I agree with Timfish. Maintaining ultra low phosphate levels is worse than high phosphates. LPS and soft corals actually prefer "dirtier" water with a higher amount of phosphates. In SPS corals, phosphates attach to the coral skeleton causing the corals to lay down more Ca and Alk to grow. High phosphates inhibit the growth of the coral, but not as much as if there are no phosphates for the corals to feed on. I believe the target phosphate level is 0.5-2.0 for a mixed reef or softie tank and 0.1-0.5 in ultra low nutrient sps tanks.

GFO is a commonly used product and a lot of people swear by it. I personally use it in my tank as well. Truthfully, you probably shouldn't need it in a tank your size and stocking list. With two small fish your feeding level is about a 1/2 pinch of flakes or 1/4 cube of frozen once or twice a day. I have 14 fish in my tank and I only feed half a cube, twice a day. My guess is that your phosphates will go down when you stop adding coral food. I bet most of it is just decomposing or getting skimmed out.

On dosing trace elements, are you testing for Ca and Mg? I don't imagine your inhabitants are using very much calcium. Generally speaking, a softie or mixed reef tank with regular monthly water changes will never run low on trace elements. I'm not saying that your tank isn't depleting the water, but you might save a buck if they aren't. When I first started I was wasting a ton of money on supplements that I didn't need. If you're interested in what to dose and how, I found Reef Alchemyby Randy Holmes-Farley to a be helpful resource.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Sascha D.

[victoly]

I think most people with SPS dominant tanks (myself included) try to keep their measurable phosphate in the 0.03-0.05 range.

Another way to reduce incoming phosphates is to a) use RODI water and b) rinse your food with RODI prior to adding it. Yes rinsing is a pain but IMO it makes a massive difference. I used to go through GFO maybe every month or two, and now i can make it more like 3 months before I need to change out.

I typically let whatever frozen food I'm going to feed sit in a small container with RODI water to thaw out. I drain that into a brine shrimp net and then use a squirt bottle with RODI to rinse for several seconds before I add it to the tank.

[Clark]

I've always topped off with RODI I get from Walmart's Culligan machine. I use less than a gallon a day so it's not much hassle. If I go to frozen food, I'll do that RODI rinse, Victoly.

Sascha, I keep track of CA/Mg. I had to bring up Mg to 1350 before I could make the CA climb. Both are now in good shaped 420/1300. Ca dips about 50 over several weeks but I imagine that will accelerate over time. I clean the canister every 3-4 weeks so that introduces a new gallon of saltwater. About every 3-4 months I change out about 5-6 gallons when I clean out the sump.

Thanks for all of the advice. I'd like to host a meeting over the winter to get more eyes on my progress, too..

Clark

[victoly]

Of the parameters that is most important, ca/mg aren't gonna be the ones that give you trouble. alkalinity is the parameter that is most important to watch regularly as you start to acquire more sensitive species.

[Sascha D.]

Of the parameters that is most important, ca/mg aren't gonna be the ones that give you trouble. alkalinity is the parameter that is most important to watch regularly as you start to acquire more sensitive species.

Personally, I've never owned a tank that used Ca fast enough for it to run low so I've never tested for it. If I choose to make my current take SPS than I will. From what I understand, Ca tests are unreliable at best anyway right?

[victoly]

The titration kits for Ca, alk and Mg are all pretty reliable. The hannah calcium checker is prone to user error.

[Jpowell490]

Mine doesn't use a lot of calcium either and I have a 6 inch Derasa Clam. My Calcium always stays at 400-420. My Alk usually ran around 1/, but after switching back to Aqua Vitro Salinity salt, it is down to 7-8. That is just fantastic salt.

[Neon Reefer]

Clark

I believe most everything everyone has posted here is correct, at least in their particular situations. The thing I would like to point out is every tank is going to be different and what works for one person and their tank is not going to have the exact same results in your tank with a different set up. There are many, many factors that play in to how any particular tank will respond to different scenarios.

Here is a for instance. Victoly is correct when he says it is important to wash frozen brine or mysis shrimp prior to utilizing same for feeding. I did this religiously when I was running a smaller tank 28 gal with no sump as Victoly does. I ran through 25 grams of GFO twice a month with this tank and never got my PO4 lower than 0.08 ppm on the RS Pro color wheel. This was feeding 1/2 cube of high quality Mysis or brine per day with 4 small fish and 40 lbs of rock. After stepping up to an 85 total gallon setup with a sump and doubling my rock I run no GFO and feed twice as many fish twice as much brine or Mysis and can not get a reading of GFO on the same color wheel.

The differences lay in everything we do to set up and maintain our tanks. The type of filtration, circulation, lighting, and housekeeping as ell as a host of other factors all make differences, especially the unlimited number of different combinations of all the factors. Most all set ups will work if properly maintained. Some would tell you a canister filter for marine setups is a Nitrate factory. Well this could be true if they are not maintained properly. But the reality is they can be very effective filtration and chemical delivery systems if properly maintained. They are really more of a preference in my opinion. Probably a good tool for those without a sump on their system. +

Veiw everything as a guideline and not an absolute, and remember stability is the key to success. Now granted you probably want that stability to be within the major guidelines for best success. Also many of the older guidelines have changed in recent years with the addition of newer and better tools. When my dad was keeping marine tanks back in the 70's many people didn't even understand the importance of utilizing live rock, much less all the powerful tools at our disposal now. Look at sumps for instance, what a change we have seen in these guys over the years. Sumps have evolved from the natural filtration tools utilizing sand, mud, rock and macros; to the age of reactors, skimmers and micro filtration. Same goes for lighting, changes in reef keeping are much like yor electronics. About as fast as you can get a new set up it becoming obsolete. No worries though, the true tale of success is watching your corals. Develop an intimate relationship with them and they will tell you what is going on. Make only one change at a time so you can accurately measure the results. One thing that does measure up thru the test of time is patience. Take it slow and you will know what is working and what is not. And remember growth is the best measure of success.

[Clark]

Thanks for the advice, NeonReefer.