Calcium Reactor vs. Automated Dosing Pumps

[victoly]

I've been meaning to get a nice sampling on the club perspective of automated dosing setups versus calcium reactors. My personal feeling (and this is bias because i don't currently have either installed, although I have done CO2 in the past for planted tanks), is that dosing premixed solutions is the safer (and therefore best management practice) for getting necessary elements to our SPS. I would love to be convinced otherwise, because I think CO2 reactors are so much cooler than boring old dosing pumps. Go! Picture unrelated.

[(Bio)³]

I know that Hydro does both. He has a carbon reactor under the stand that runs constant and is hooked up to a PH pen of course. Then in his ATO container that gravity feeds to his sump he will dump dosing elements.

I do know that if you do not stir it in well enough this will clog the ATO float in the sump, easy fix but just a pain. The co2 reactor only had to have a bottle change and it was done.

What do you do if your dosing pump gets stuck on or fails to fire off due to a clog? Just tossing stuff out for more convo on the subject.

[FarmerTy]

I feel that calcium reactors have the advantage of dosing other trace elements that are not found within a pure mix such as a 2-part mixture. However, I have no data to back it up and in our industry Victoly, theory without supporting data isn't even worth the paper it is written on. I will say that whatever materials were used in the creation of the coral skeleton and deposited within its matrix are the same materials that are being broken down in a calcium reactor. Maybe not all of it will be dissolved in a usable form for the corals to use but I'd imagine there is some added benefit somewhere in there. Even the Caribsea Arm media states, "A high magnesium reactor media. ARM™ Extra Coarse is still a complete reactor media containing not only calcium and carbonate, but essential trace elements as well. ARM™ Extra Coarse contains: 275200 ppm Calcium, 590000 ppm Carbonate, 2200 ppm Strontium, and 2000 ppm Magnesium." It is a manufacturer claim so take it for what its worth but there's got to be some type of additional benefit in there somewhere that we are not measuring.

The added risk with a calcium reactor is albeit a little higher than with a dosing pump but I think the added benefits outweigh it in my opinion. Pluses that include low maintenance, potential trace element dosing, and Victoly's "cool factor" of having a calcium reactor. Once dialed in, maintenance is about 2x a year (fill CO2 bottle, fill media, warm water through lines to clear out buildups), versus the mixing of 2-part solution for calcium/magnesium/alkalinity every 2 months and setting them up in a bottle and monitoring them to see when it is time to fill them back up again.

I set the calcium reactor, took me about 1-2 weeks the first time, then 1-2 days from that point on now that I know my bubbling rate and drip rate, and leave it alone for 6 months. Replace media, clean it out, dial it in again for about 1-2 days, then walk away again. Just my 2 cents as I have had experience with both types of systems.

-Ty

[+brian.srock]

Following along but can't stop watching the guy sliding...

[victoly]

This is just a simple price comparison for 100 gallon tank

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/geo-calcium-reactor-418.html - $299.99 for the reactor

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/reactors/milwaukee-ma957-co2-regulator.html $94.99 for the regulator

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/reactors/co2-tank-5-lbs.html $79.99 for the tank

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=milwaukee+ph+controller&hl=en&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS379US379&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&ion=1&biw=1680&bih=963&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9249091789668889912&sa=X&ei=PdU_UNbbE-ec2QXEgoHADg&ved=0CFcQxBUwAA#scoring=tp pH controller $95.38

Consumables Cost (annual)

http://www.marinedepot.com/CaribSea_A.R.M._Aragonite_Reactor_Media_Calcium_Reactor_Media-CaribSea-CS0525-FICRCM-vi.html $22.99 * 2 uses/yr = 45.98

CO2 - $30

Total for CO2 = $646.33 for the first year of operation. This cost does not include incidentals like tubing/plumbing for setup OR shipping/taxes for goods. Total cost would probably be somewhere around $700.

[FarmerTy]

You could use your Apex controller you have to set it up. One day maybe I'll get a 2nd pH probe and modify the cap of the reactor to hold the probe, but for now one pH probe works for me. I just program my Apex to shut off the CO2 solenoid if my pH gets below a certain number.

[victoly]

Oh I agree, I'm just trying to get apples to apples here for the apexless. I'll do the annual operating cost for dosing later this evening.

[FarmerTy]

Ahhh, gotcha.

[+etannert]

I don't know THAT much about calcium reactors, but I have read plenty of horror stories on DFWMAS about them overflowing/overdosing and turning tanks white. (Or maybe I'm confusing them with kalk reactors? Again, don't know enough to know.) I just got a Marine Color dosing pump - basically a knockoff of the Bubble Magus - and it's super easy to set up and use. I have a smaller tank (Solana) and for my needs, the olive oil bottles I use seem to last about two weeks before needing refilling, which is easy to do. The total cost for the pump, tubing bracket, shelf, bottles, and airline tubing was less than $200 and so far so good...

[subsea]

This is just a simple price comparison for 100 gallon tank

http://www.bulkreefs...eactor-418.html - $299.99 for the reactor

http://www.bulkreefs...-regulator.html $94.99 for the regulator

http://www.bulkreefs...tank-5-lbs.html $79.99 for the tank

http://www.google.co...UwAA#scoring=tp pH controller $95.38

Consumables Cost (annual)

http://www.marinedep...-FICRCM-vi.html $22.99 * 2 uses/yr = 45.98

CO2 - $30

Total for CO2 = $646.33 for the first year of operation. This cost does not include incidentals like tubing/plumbing for setup OR shipping/taxes for goods. Total cost would probably be somewhere around $700.

I built my own reactor for less than $50 out of 4" PVC. I ran my system on manual, which means one less thing to fail, a pH controller. I had an extended system that including 500G of refugiums, growout troughs and 150G display tank. I had oppossite photoperiods and had no problems with pH stability. Initialy there was much testing and adjusting for several weeks. Once calcium was slected as the concentration to monitor, there was no more tweaking required. Maintenance required was twice a year at less than one hour of labor in one year. When you put the labor cost in the equation, calcium reactor wins, imo.

I thought the thread was going to deal with failure analysys. Worst case sceanario.

Patrick

[wizardx322]

You need to think long term not short term. And how much your tank is absorbing the alk and ca. I am more of a ca reactor guy set tune it and leave it. dosing you need to mix and fill mix and fill more maintenance then I want. If your tank is dropping 1 alk a day like mine was ca reactor is better. It's also better if you go out of town and have someone look after your tank they don't have to dose or mix and add.

And you can find a setup for around $300

[victoly]

Here's the dosing price layout:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-media-additives/2-part-dosing-equipment/bubble-magus-liquid-storage-container.html (2 x $35.99 = $71.98)

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-2-part-doser-1-1-ml-per-minute.html (2 x $79.99 = $159.98)

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/monitors-controllers/timers/eco-plus-dual-digital-timer.html ($19.99)

Consumables (this is exceptionally hard to predict on a fictitious system)

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-media-additives/calcium-and-alkalinity-additives/brs-2-part-calcium-alkalinity-total-package-bulk.html ($79.99)

Total Cost of operation for year 1 = $331.94

Also, I found this:

[victoly]

So to compare cost:

CO2 year one costs = $646.33

Every subsequent year costs = $75.98

Dosing year one costs = $331.94

Every subsequent year costs = $79.99

So in terms of cost, annual operating costs outside of the initial startup cost are comparable.

However, bang for your buck in terms of how much alk/ca/mag you can pound into your water is in favor of the calcium reactor.

However x2 - (and this is the biggest for me) your chances of failure are greater in calcium reactors by design. I have personally had a CO2 reg screw up in a planted tank and dump lethal amounts of gas. If i had done to my reef tank, what I did to my planted tank, it would be catastrophic. The amount of CO2 contained within the tank is plenty to do serious harm in most hobbyists tanks. Dosing is limited (and therefore safer) by two things.

1) Dosing rate of the pumps, i have *never* heard of a pump failing in such a way that it pumps faster than intended. You might have a timer failure and pump longer than intended, but never faster.

2) Limit to the container size. This has the obvious downside of meaning a higher labor interval, but perhaps the risk is worth it.

[victoly]

This is just a simple price comparison for 100 gallon tank

http://www.bulkreefs...eactor-418.html - $299.99 for the reactor

http://www.bulkreefs...-regulator.html $94.99 for the regulator

http://www.bulkreefs...tank-5-lbs.html $79.99 for the tank

http://www.google.co...UwAA#scoring=tp pH controller $95.38

Consumables Cost (annual)

http://www.marinedep...-FICRCM-vi.html $22.99 * 2 uses/yr = 45.98

CO2 - $30

Total for CO2 = $646.33 for the first year of operation. This cost does not include incidentals like tubing/plumbing for setup OR shipping/taxes for goods. Total cost would probably be somewhere around $700.

I built my own reactor for less than $50 out of 4" PVC. I ran my system on manual, which means one less thing to fail, a pH controller. I had an extended system that including 500G of refugiums, growout troughs and 150G display tank. I had oppossite photoperiods and had no problems with pH stability. Initialy there was much testing and adjusting for several weeks. Once calcium was slected as the concentration to monitor, there was no more tweaking required. Maintenance required was twice a year at less than one hour of labor in one year. When you put the labor cost in the equation, calcium reactor wins, imo.

I thought the thread was going to deal with failure analysys. Worst case sceanario.

Patrick

You are running a special case tank which is heavily dominated by CO2 sinks. Most people don't have the capacity to safely absorb the quantity of gas that could potentially leak out of a system that doesn't have timer/pH control. However, your point about labor cost is totally valid. When you amortize your "time spent" mixing solution, over the life of your tank, it might very well be worth the extra couple hundred bucks in startup cost if safety isn't a driving factor.

[FarmerTy]

Is this a discussion for your own purposes Victoly or is this more discussion inducing? I ask because with your Apex controller and pH probe, you can counteract the catastrophic dumping of CO2 in your system. Or are you leaving that out of the discussion for now and just focusing on the dosing pumps vs calc reactors as a separate topic in itself before identifying and discussing possible outside remedies?

I fear the dumping of CO2 in my system too but my Apex helps me sleep at night knowing that solenoid will shut off my CO2 if my pH goes below my safeguard setpoint. That's why I went the route of the calcium reactor vs the dosing pumps, because I have a safeguard with the controller. Then again, my Apex could always fail or my pH probe can malfunction!

[subsea]

This is just a simple price comparison for 100 gallon tank

http://www.bulkreefs...eactor-418.html - $299.99 for the reactor

http://www.bulkreefs...-regulator.html $94.99 for the regulator

http://www.bulkreefs...tank-5-lbs.html $79.99 for the tank

http://www.google.co...UwAA#scoring=tp pH controller $95.38

Consumables Cost (annual)

http://www.marinedep...-FICRCM-vi.html $22.99 * 2 uses/yr = 45.98

CO2 - $30

Total for CO2 = $646.33 for the first year of operation. This cost does not include incidentals like tubing/plumbing for setup OR shipping/taxes for goods. Total cost would probably be somewhere around $700.

I built my own reactor for less than $50 out of 4" PVC. I ran my system on manual, which means one less thing to fail, a pH controller. I had an extended system that including 500G of refugiums, growout troughs and 150G display tank. I had oppossite photoperiods and had no problems with pH stability. Initialy there was much testing and adjusting for several weeks. Once calcium was slected as the concentration to monitor, there was no more tweaking required. Maintenance required was twice a year at less than one hour of labor in one year. When you put the labor cost in the equation, calcium reactor wins, imo.

I thought the thread was going to deal with failure analysys. Worst case sceanario.

Patrick

You are running a special case tank which is heavily dominated by CO2 sinks. Most people don't have the capacity to safely absorb the quantity of gas that could potentially leak out of a system that doesn't have timer/pH control. However, your point about labor cost is totally valid. When you amortize your "time spent" mixing solution, over the life of your tank, it might very well be worth the extra couple bucks in startup cost if safety isn't a driving factor.

What is a CO2 sink?

You assume that because of no timer or pH controller, I have no control. I use a metering needle valve to set CO2 flow rate. If it fails, it would fail closed and block CO2. Worst case scenario would be low calcium and alkalinity.

If the timer on your dosing pump fails closed, you will empty your batch tank into your reef tank. That does not sound like "best practice" to me.

[offroadodge]

ok to many people to quote here...So i started my 1st SPS dominante tank in 2005 and have NEVER had an issue with my CA reactor. Since 2005 i have had to replace the impeller in the pump on the reactor ONE time cause i wore out the shaft in the tunze pump ($15) other than that i buy a bucket of ARM coarse Media once a year and buy NEO MAG for the reactor. This is ONLY my opinion cause this is the only thing i have used but to me its a NO brainer. I havent even recalibrated my PH probe in 2 years and havent purchased a new one since i bought the 1st one in 2005. Remember the theory of buy the CORRECT/BEST item the 1st time. When i started my 1st CA reactor YES i spent alot of money up front (but a SPS dominant tank REQUIRES it) if cost is and issue dose manually for a few months till you get the $ saved up and buy ONCE. As far as "How CA,ALK, & MG work in correlation"? Here is the simple and easy thing to understand it. CA and ALK are a direct correlation of each other but without MG neither one will work. MG is the binding agent for the 2, no matter how much CA you add to raise the CA level it wont do a thing unless you add MG. I have(a very long time ago put 4oz of CA in the tank at one time and all it did was settle). That being said, thats why i put NEOMAG in my CA reactor. I now dont have to dose anything. My CA stays at 460 My ALK stays at 11 and My MG stays around 1400. 24/7 365 days a year. I NEVER EVER even check the levels anymore. All i look at is the PH of the tank on the controller and i can tell you what all 3 of those levels are. Also there are MANY things a dosing pump cant dose that is naturally dosed with a CA reactor normally. If you melting coral skeleton, and media you are putting back what the corals and all needs. REMEMBER i and no professional. These are JMOs over the last years. But i did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, JK. If you would like help feel free to PM me. Sorry to ramble

[FarmerTy]

I'll have to look into the NEO MAG offroaddodge. I may not need it currently but may need it in the future.

Not to hijack, but a weird thing about my tank, I bought the 2-part plus magnesium from BRS 1.5 years ago and have never had to dose magnesium. It's always stayed at 1375-1400 with no water changes. Odd. For awhile, it actually was increasing very slowly. Perhaps my substrate??? With the calcium reactor, same thing, never had to dose magnesium. Odd, always been the same at 1375-1400. Maybe I should get my water tested in case my test kit is off.

-Ty

[victoly]

Is this a discussion for your own purposes Victoly or is this more discussion inducing? I ask because with your Apex controller and pH probe, you can counteract the catastrophic dumping of CO2 in your system. Or are you leaving that out of the discussion for now and just focusing on the dosing pumps vs calc reactors as a separate topic in itself before identifying and discussing possible outside remedies?

I fear the dumping of CO2 in my system too but my Apex helps me sleep at night knowing that solenoid will shut off my CO2 if my pH goes below my safeguard setpoint. That's why I went the route of the calcium reactor vs the dosing pumps, because I have a safeguard with the controller. Then again, my Apex could always fail or my pH probe can malfunction!

Both for my own purposes and discussion. When i upgrade tanks (in like 15 years), you have to pick one or the other methods. I'm trying to figure out what the best application for my purposes will be. To your point about failure of probes/controller, that's why i feel that we as hobbyists should be doing our best to put hard engineering limits on potentially disastrous elements to our tanks. For example, instead of plumbing your RODI directly to the float in your tank, you have a fixed volume of water in your ATO reservoir.

[victoly]

This is just a simple price comparison for 100 gallon tank

http://www.bulkreefs...eactor-418.html - $299.99 for the reactor

http://www.bulkreefs...-regulator.html $94.99 for the regulator

http://www.bulkreefs...tank-5-lbs.html $79.99 for the tank

http://www.google.co...UwAA#scoring=tp pH controller $95.38

Consumables Cost (annual)

http://www.marinedep...-FICRCM-vi.html $22.99 * 2 uses/yr = 45.98

CO2 - $30

Total for CO2 = $646.33 for the first year of operation. This cost does not include incidentals like tubing/plumbing for setup OR shipping/taxes for goods. Total cost would probably be somewhere around $700.

I built my own reactor for less than $50 out of 4" PVC. I ran my system on manual, which means one less thing to fail, a pH controller. I had an extended system that including 500G of refugiums, growout troughs and 150G display tank. I had oppossite photoperiods and had no problems with pH stability. Initialy there was much testing and adjusting for several weeks. Once calcium was slected as the concentration to monitor, there was no more tweaking required. Maintenance required was twice a year at less than one hour of labor in one year. When you put the labor cost in the equation, calcium reactor wins, imo.

I thought the thread was going to deal with failure analysys. Worst case sceanario.

Patrick

You are running a special case tank which is heavily dominated by CO2 sinks. Most people don't have the capacity to safely absorb the quantity of gas that could potentially leak out of a system that doesn't have timer/pH control. However, your point about labor cost is totally valid. When you amortize your "time spent" mixing solution, over the life of your tank, it might very well be worth the extra couple bucks in startup cost if safety isn't a driving factor.

What is a CO2 sink?

You assume that because of no timer or pH controller, I have no control. I use a metering needle valve to set CO2 flow rate. If it fails, it would fail closed and block CO2. Worst case scenario would be low calcium and alkalinity.

If the timer on your dosing pump fails closed, you will empty your batch tank into your reef tank. That does not sound like "best practice" to me.

CO2 sink meaning a large consumer of CO2. All of the caulerpa that you have, in addition to the large tank volume, gives you a much wider cushion than the joe blow hobbyist. I have had a solenoid on a CO2 tank fail and nuke a previous tank, so it is possible to have mechanical failure on a CO2 based system.

[FarmerTy]

I see your argument for less risky with the dosing pumps, especially if you keep a low reserve volume in the bottles that it is pumping from. At the worst, the dosing pumps will empty out the bottles and increase your calcium and alk levels to a certain degree, but maybe not catastrophic.

Basically, if all the things go wrong with the dosing pumps, only the bottle of 2-part will be dumped in the tank. This may or may not lead to a tank crash.

Worst case scenario, if everything goes wrong with the calcium reactor, the increase in CO2 will kill everything. This will have a higher chance of a tank crash than dosing pumps.

[victoly]

[kuyatwo]

1) Dosing rate of the pumps, i have *never* heard of a pump failing in such a way that it pumps faster than intended. You might have a timer failure and pump longer than intended, but never faster.

I have had it where peristaltic pump tubing needed to be replaced it developed a small crack over time and lost suction I did not notice till week later when corals were not looking good and my alk dropped to 5dkh.

I have now switched to ca reactor I love it. In theory if you don't have nitrates or phosphate issue you should never need to do water change as all the trace minerals are being replenished from the ca reactor media while two part you still will need to do a water change to replenish what trace minerals are absorbed by the corals. If you switched to full balling method then you are truly replacing all what the corals need

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[victoly]

1) Dosing rate of the pumps, i have *never* heard of a pump failing in such a way that it pumps faster than intended. You might have a timer failure and pump longer than intended, but never faster.

I have had it where peristaltic pump tubing needed to be replaced it developed a small crack over time and lost suction I did not notice till week later when corals were not looking good and my alk dropped to 5dkh.

I have now switched to ca reactor I love it. In theory if you don't have nitrates or phosphate issue you should never need to do water change as all the trace minerals are being replenished from the ca reactor media while two part you still will need to do a water change to replenish what trace minerals are absorbed by the corals. If you switched to full balling method then you are truly replacing all what the corals need

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good point about replacing the tubing on the head regularly. However, i still feel as if this failure is in the "it broke but didn't kill everything" category. The same type of failure could happen to a reactor, and therefore makes them even.

[FarmerTy]

1) Dosing rate of the pumps, i have *never* heard of a pump failing in such a way that it pumps faster than intended. You might have a timer failure and pump longer than intended, but never faster.

I have had it where peristaltic pump tubing needed to be replaced it developed a small crack over time and lost suction I did not notice till week later when corals were not looking good and my alk dropped to 5dkh.

I have now switched to ca reactor I love it. In theory if you don't have nitrates or phosphate issue you should never need to do water change as all the trace minerals are being replenished from the ca reactor media while two part you still will need to do a water change to replenish what trace minerals are absorbed by the corals. If you switched to full balling method then you are truly replacing all what the corals need

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Besides sucking out detritus in my sump once and one time I treated for cyano, I have not done a water change in the past 1.5 yrs. That's 50 gallons in the last 1.5 years on a system with 150 gallons total volume.

If I had the same regiment as I did with my nano (20% every 2 weeks), I would have used roughly 1200 gallons and eight 5-gallon buckets of salt up to this point!!! My back is already hurting just at the thought. On the flip side, I still have 2/3rds a bucket of salt sitting in my garage I bought 1.5 years ago. Of course I pay on the other end (calcium reactor, dosing) but pulling out a pipette and a bottle of trace elements or replacing my reactor media sounds better than lifting those buckets anyday!

-Ty