WORST IDEA EVER!!!!!!!!!

[apr20vturbo]

Other than the sake of arguing, I don't know of any other motive for someone to work so diligently to try and disprove something that is obviously wrong.

That is what I am trying to get across.

A.)How can any of us (us being anyone in the reef keeping hobby) say that this night club is any more morally wrong than we are for what we do?

B.)Who actually has facts (PETA doesn't have any from what I have seen) about how bad the club is treating the animals it has? I am not trying to defend the club as being good, I just see no good reason for all the attacks...if you have them let me know.

I am not going to feed this flame by arguing with you. Please stop being detrimental to the spirit of this forum.

How is a debate detrimental to the spirit of the forum? These are just differing opinions are we all supposed to drone behind one another?

[CaptainBob]

now now, lets remember that this is the internet we're on and stop feeding the troll.

that being said, kudos for invoking pen and teller on PETA, and Yassine deserves to get put through a treechipper and served to his sharks... Love his implication that his sharks were captive bred, or rather "not removed from the wild"

and this weeks award for dumbest rich prick in Austin goes to...

[apr20vturbo]

now now, lets remember that this is the internet we're on and stop feeding the troll.

that being said, kudos for invoking pen and teller on PETA, and Yassine deserves to get put through a treechipper and served to his sharks... Love his implication that his sharks were captive bred, or rather "not removed from the wild"

and this weeks award for dumbest rich prick in Austin goes to...

Just an FYI I am only stating that I disagree with you guys because I do, I am sorry if you guys think that it was mean by sharing my thoughts. I can down there to visit a friend that lives in austin and I figured I would see if there was a reef club that had anything cool to buy in the for sale section. I stumbled along this post, and I commented with my opinions. I enjoy this hobby just like most of you....

[RevolutionInProgress]

PETA isn't an organization that I have any support for, other than for the fact that they are often able to bring attention to animal-welfare issues that really do need attention. PETA is against having any animals captive for human pleasure, entertainment, food, or even working applications whatsoever. PETA definitely doesn't support your right to have a pet dog, and certainly not to have pet fish. They've got all kinds of propaganda going on all over the place to make themselves seem mainstream and "normal", but do a little digging and you'll find out that they're not an organization you'd want to support (assuming you like having pets and eating meat).

apr20vturbo - I can't for the life of me figure out why you keep arguing that QUA is doing no harm to the sharks and rays they have. The videos, pictures, and the description from the CEO all indicate that they have no idea what they're doing in terms of taking good care of those animals. Hard facts are going to be elusive in something like this, considering how closed lipped they've been about many aspects of their set-up and the fact that we can't run in there and investigate. Feel free to buy a bottle of something, and report back about the situation over at the bar.

If you really want to draw a line that separates the people on this board from the people running QUA, then look to intent. The fact that we're not keeping tanks as a money-making, publicity-whoring gimmick seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[apr20vturbo]

PETA isn't an organization that I have any support for, other than for the fact that they are often able to bring attention to animal-welfare issues that really do need attention. PETA is against having any animals captive for human pleasure, entertainment, food, or even working applications whatsoever. PETA definitely doesn't support your right to have a pet dog, and certainly not to have pet fish. They've got all kinds of propaganda going on all over the place to make themselves seem mainstream and "normal", but do a little digging and you'll find out that they're not an organization you'd want to support (assuming you like having pets and eating meat).

apr20vturbo - I can't for the life of me figure out why you keep arguing that QUA is doing no harm to the sharks and rays they have. The videos, pictures, and the description from the CEO all indicate that they have no idea what they're doing in terms of taking good care of those animals. Hard facts are going to be elusive in something like this, considering how closed lipped they've been about many aspects of their set-up and the fact that we can't run in there and investigate. Feel free to buy a bottle of something, and report back about the situation over at the bar.

If you really want to draw a line that separates the people on this board from the people running QUA, then look to intent. The fact that we're not keeping tanks as a money-making, publicity-whoring gimmick seems pretty clear-cut to me.

I am not arguing that Qua isn't harming the sharks and rays, I said I don't know that they are doing anything worse than what we do. By your logic it is ok to have a negative impact on the ocean as long as you are not in it to make a profit?

[GKarshens]

It's a question of degrees. It is scientific fact (ask Anthony Calfo) that a Black tip needs at least 40 linear feet to survive with any kind of long-term health in captivity. I completely agree with you that living in our tanks is not the best environment for our fish. But, if done responsibly they can have long term success. I personally know of a pair of clownfish here in Austin that are over 30 years old. I would love to have a Naso Tang but I feel that a 125 is too small for one so I don't.

[Reefer]

Honestly, from a completely nuetral standpoint, I feel that Turbo is entirely correct as well. Intent does not make it alright. There has been alot of speculation and no one has posted any links or anything to something that could substantially prove that what is being done is cruel and inhumane. This is a debate which touches us each differently, and do different degrees as GKarshens stated, so it's a matter of feeling. What I mean by all of this is, people in general will feel very right-wing about SOMETHING in the world. I know personally that I hate alot of local fish stores for not asking people what fish they have in their tanks and if it is not going to live a "happy" life, they should refuse to sell it. However, they probably would view that as suicide, because the last thing a customer wants is to be told no. I love this hobby, and everything about it, but ill fated choices for stocking tanks have plagued everyone at some point. I too like James would like to know how many sharks will die there, and at what point will someone open their eyes and realize that it is a bad choice.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Reefer

[CaptainBob]

if it is not going to live a "happy" life, they should refuse to sell it. However, they probably would view that as suicide, because the last thing a customer wants is to be told no.

It's actually illegal for any retail business in Texas to refuse to sell anything on a shelf because they don't feel the customer is able to handle the product, product in this case unfortunately includes fish. It's also illegal to argue with any degree of persistence that someone might not be able to keep a certain species in a tank the way they want to, that apparently constitutes consumer profiling.

To be brutally honest I'd rather shoot some of our customers than sell them fish they're inevitably going kill as a result of their own stupidity, but the law not only says I can't shoot them, but also states that I have to sell them whatever fish they're willing and able to pay for, wether I like it or not. For that same reason, if somebody demands something out of one of our tanks marked not for sale because of an illness being treated, we technically still have to sell them the sick fish, and then spend an hour the next day explaining that their fish died because they were dumb and bought the sick ones. Totally sucks, but there's really jack anybody can do about it.

Turbo- we're not saying you're being mean, but you were arguing for the sake of ruffling feathers, it really shouldn't surprise you that people on this board feel the way we do, and while you're entitled to your own opinion, I'm going to hazard a guess that 90% of us here are still vehemently opposed to this whole operation just on principle. What they're doing isn't sustainable long term, if I buy a coral and it dies, I might try another of the same species, but if I lose that one, I'm going to learn a lesson from it and stop buying that species, as I hope any hobbiest would. Qua is different in the sense that their sharks are being treated as decor, and there's no way you'll convince me they'll be replaced without the bat of an eye whenever they drop off, that's exploitation of the highest magnitude, imagine doing the same thing with kittens, kept too cramped, and too hot, with disorienting amounts of stimuli at all times. This wouldn't fly after they cooked their first batch of stressed out kitties, but with sharks it's cool for whatever reason.

Just so everyone has Aquatek's stance on the issue, we were consulted and told the proprietors and their "professionals" that their idea was flawed and needed a lot more thought before we'd greenlight the system for sharks, they responded by calling us amateurs and storming off. Now they're hiding everything they can about the whole system from everyone who asks, except that folks with more money than sense can go dance on a bigass fishtank, and that they've got "professionals" making sure everything's ok. We told them the idea was screwed before they started, and we're sticking to our guns and holding these rejects in the same light of contempt as the white trash pricks who come in yammering about how his cousin said he had an oscar in a 10 gallon tank and it did fine, because fish only grow to the size of the tank you put them in.

*edit* we don't have a good enough rage smiley here...

Edited October 22, 2007 by CaptainBob

[aquarius]

i think maybe avr20vturbo just moved over here from red neck reefers!

[4R00P3R]

It's a real shame, but you all sound like vegetarians. Don't you have other people kill animals for you to eat? Don't you have some omnivores or carnivores in your own tanks?

[CaptainBob]

It's a real shame, but you all sound like vegetarians. Don't you have other people kill animals for you to eat? Don't you have some omnivores or carnivores in your own tanks?

A lot of this post is going to sound angry, that's because I am, as I rightly should be.

The cow that was slaughtered so I could have topnotch for lunch today wasn't killed as a novelty for wannabe socialites, and the domestic cattle population isn't what I'd call threatened, they're born to eat, eat to grow, grow to die, and die to be grilled and delicious, I have no delusions about that . The strips of farm raised salmon and mysis shrimp my predators ate today were purchased after being raised and killed in captivity in a sustainable manner. I don't have a bleeding heart for the hundreds of copepods my pipefish eats every day because I know they're reproducing here, not being taken from the sea. My wildcaught fish are the closest thing I have to Qua's sharks, and even then I don't feel bad because my tank at home is set up to accomodate them, not to passively amuse people with more money to burn than they have firing neurons in their brains, want to know what's wrong with their system? Ask them about cooling equipment and elecrical grounding, you'll get a spiel about how they get fresh fish from wholefoods every day. If they genuinely had a marvel of modern aquaria, they'd be talking about it to no end in gratuitous detail, rather than repeatedly droning on about captive origins and shrimp from wholefoods. That's the kind of thing people are proud of and like to talk about, Qua has something to hide, and that should set off all kinds of red flags in everybody's heads right away.

You may think we sound like liberal, commie, pinko, tree hugging, vegetarians, but I've got a sneaking suspicion that you haven't thought too hard on this subject and haven't even considered the reasons why a lot of us here are upset about this whole debacle. Unless you honestly buy into his claim that the adult leopard and blacktip sharks he was were "of captive origin" which is a halfheartedly masked lie unless you happen to be living in the same happy fantasy world where 1000 dollar bottles of booze grow on magic trees where these club entrepeneurs seem to hail from, but back here on planet earth no one has bred sharks in captivity much less these species... Just for kicks google "captive bred shark", you won't find anything that has to do with sharks completing a lifecycle in an even vaugely captive environment. You're not making any points here other than making it abundantly clear that you don't know what you're talking about.

Now here's the fun part, looking at the big picture.

Just because neither of the species Qua have are on CITES redlists yet doesn't mean we as humans have any right or reason to help them get there, and it's a pretty well known fact that all sharks are well on their way to endangered status from commercial and sportfishing along with flat out human ignorance. Watch sharkweek next time it comes around and try listening to what the narrator is saying rather than just gawking at the gore, I know it's a hard concept to wrap your head around, but you might learn something. I know, LEARN?! From TV? SCARY! I'd even go so far as to suggest you pick up one of those archaic devices known in some circles as "books" on the subject.

But first and foremost I'm a hobbiest, not a conservationist. We in the hobby of aquaculture don't need a stain like this on our collective record. There's already a million and one people trying to keep us from having our hobby because of sketchy practices like stripmining liverock and cyanide collecting, if you're too shortsighted to see where this is headed, you need a pretty serious reality check. Is this going to be the straw that breaks the camels back? Probably not, but there's some kind of adage about the best cure having to do with prevention or somesuch thing. I don't know much about adages, but I do know that if everyone stayed apathetic and this were to be accepted as a common practice then we'd be handing our opponents in PETA and other sociopathic organizations a whole truckload of ammunition on a silver platter to sling back at all of us not just the bleeding hearts.

Consider Scleropages formosus, Asian arowanas, they hit the CITES redlists and now we can't even import certified farm raised microchipped specimens, and people getting busted importing them are getting 15,000 dollar fines up to 15 years in prison. Do you feel like having explain to your grandkids that you can't have wildcaught marine fish or else they'll lose their college money and you'll be sent to jail? If enough of the wrong people get their way we're not going to be too terribly far away from that. If you like your hobby, think actively for a fraction of a second and try to see why this is such a bad thing, get mad and discourage other people from following Qua's suit, unfortunately short of something that'd be construed as terrorism that's all we as citizens can do, and I'm not ready to suggest we start blowing up nightclubs. I'm done on this subject, it's bad for my blood pressure to care this much.

But if apathy's your thing, keep on keeping on, this'll all be illegal soon.