WORST IDEA EVER!!!!!!!!!

[KarenM]

Karen-do you have any suggestions of groups to contact? I found a ton of Austin groups involving dogs and cats, but only a few that had a broader interest.

I'm afraid I don't, I was only involved in dog/cat/horse groups. If I get a chance tonight I'll do some googling. I'd like to know if there are any other nighclubs like this around, and if it's ever been fought, even if unsuccessfully. If this battle has been already fought and lost, there may be nothing we can do but encourage a boycott to our friends. There is a slight possibility we can find out what org is responsible for investigating complaints filed against smaller aquariums and get them to check into this and find out how this club handles water quality, health issues, sound waves, etc.

The good thing about situations like this is that by just remaining in the forefront and being a hot topic, it will often let our cause snowball on it's own and bring in the powers that be.

[GKarshens]

I think San Marcos is great too, it just isn't conducive to a live music scene like Austin used to be. If I could have found a decent paying job in SM I would've stayed. I just couldn't take the commute anymore.

[apr20vturbo]

[+Bmwaaron]

Couldn't they just hire a bunch of lawyers to dance there? I think it would have the same effect.

[thedude]

Fox just ran another news story on Qua telling how PETA is protesting the treatment of the animals inside. They voiced the same concerns we did about noise, etc. Benny (the manager of Qua) said that the allegations were ridiculous and that they had spent over $500 million dollars on making sure the sharks would be safe (I'd just like to laugh in his face on this one because we went out there).

PETA also said they had reports of at least 3 sharks dying while Qua said only one shark has died and it died in transport. Sigh

[Headless_donkey]

linksky

Apparently, lying on camera as well as killing sharks is a forte of this guy.

[GKarshens]

My brother talked to a waitress at Fado's across the street and she said she knew that several had died. She also said the people there were total jerks. She went over to introduce herself and welcome them and they wouldn't let her in because she was under dressed.

[apr20vturbo]

guilty until proven innocent?

[Headless_donkey]

They have killed more then one. They did not spend that much in research. They are not in it for the good of the animals.

If they had spent half a million on research they would have found out what a bad idea this is. In fact that info would have been free if they had asked some LFS or marine biologists. Oh wait, they did and heard that the tank was set-up poorly and they didn't listen.

Not guilty until proven innocent. Just guilty.

[apr20vturbo]

"They have killed more then one. They did not spend that much in research."

"Oh wait, they did and heard that the tank was set-up poorly and they didn't listen."

where do you read those facts?

and don't you (and everyone else in this hobby) take fish out of their perfectly good home in the massive ocean and put them in a tiny tank for your enjoyment thus vastly increasing their chances of death? How many fish has everyone here killed in their tank over the time they have been in the hobby?

[Headless_donkey]

Local suppliers

Yes we do, but We also set-up systems that are capable of supporting to the life we choose to put in them. This shark tank has terribly inadequate filtration. We also DO NOT play loud music around our tanks EVERY night. Sharks are super sensitive to vibrations and electrical changes. How many times have I invited all of my friends over to dance on top of my tank? Zero.

Not to mention his choice in livestock is extremely poor. Sharks, Rays, and Batfish all take highly specialized aquariums for long term success. For example rays like very fine substrate. Batfish get GIGANTIC!

I am by no means an expert, but it doesn't take one to figure out the is inhumane and destine for failure.

BTW I don't have a problem with the tanks behind the bar. They aren't very deep, but they still are set-up better then the shark tank. Have you noticed the Aquarium bar doesn't have fish tanks? They tried.

[apr20vturbo]

Local suppliers

That doesn't seem to be something I can go by, so I guess I will just call them rumors for now

Yes we do, but We also set-up systems that are capable of supporting to the life we choose to put in them.

You don't think that they are thinking the same thing and that they had some sort of expert come by to tell them how to do it? I am sure the club owner is not an expert and would have no idea how to start

This shark tank has terribly inadequate filtration. We also DO NOT play loud music around our tanks EVERY night. Sharks are super sensitive to vibrations and electrical changes. How many times have I invited all of my friends over to dance on top of my tank? Zero.

How do you know so much about the filtration? do you work there? Have you see all of it? How do you know for a fact that the "three-inch acrylic barrier that's soundproof and vibration-proof" doesn't work?

Not to mention his choice in livestock is extremely poor. Sharks, Rays, and Batfish all take highly specialized aquariums for long term success. For example rays like very fine substrate. Batfish get GIGANTIC!

Some would say the same about your choice of livestock vs. the ocean or your Harlequin that kills starfish...what about the starfish's "rights" to have a better chance at survival? Or does it only matter what livestock you like best?

I am by no means an expert, but it doesn't take one to figure out the is inhumane and destine for failure.

Some call this hobby inhumane...what is the difference?

BTW I don't have a problem with the tanks behind the bar. They aren't very deep, but they still are set-up better then the shark tank. Have you noticed the Aquarium bar doesn't have fish tanks? They tried.

No, I don't live in austin, I just came down to visit a friend.

Just to be clear I am not trying to "start" anything, just trying to see both sides. I hope you don't take this personal

[GKarshens]

You seem like you work there.

I also talked to the same local suppliers that the owner originally called in to help him get it set up. They told him the problems with the set up and that it wouldn't work and he didn't like that and went to someone who would tickle his ears.

While I agree that the way we keep fish may not be the "best" environment for them, we try to make there homes as healthy as possible. And if people follow the accepted rules about having fish in the proper sized tank for their type of fish then there is, and has been long-term success. Picking on James for his shrimp is just stupid. Would it be more humane to let them starve? That is their natural food. Are you a vegan? Do you own any leather? My point is there are a lot of animals that are killed by humans everyday, but where it becomes a problem is when they are put into positions where they cannot have a semi-healthy existence and are in effect being tortured daily that we need to do something about it.

[Headless_donkey]

Letter I got from PETA

Dear James,

Thanks for writing. This went out yesterday.

Yours truly,

Jennifer O'Connor

Animals in Entertainment Campaign Writer

Sign up for e-news http://www.peta.org/lists.asp

October 18, 2007

To: [Austin, Texas]

From: Daniel Hauff 773-486-6786; [email protected]

David Perle 757-622-7382, ext. 8410

Re: PETA to Qua Nightclub: Let Sexy Mermaids Replace Live Sharks and Rays

2 pages via fax:

This morning, PETA sent a letter to Mike Yassine of Austin's newly opened Qua Bottle Lounge, urging him to immediately relocate the reef sharks, sting rays, and other aquatic animals confined to a tank beneath the dance floor to a more suitable environment and to replace the animals with sexy mermaids. PETA's letter follows allegations that at least three sharks have already died at the Qua Bottle Lounge and that a fourth shark is ill and being treated with antibiotics. PETA points out that these animals are extremely sensitive to sound, light, and vibration. They will suffer prolonged—and possibly fatal— stress if they are repeatedly subjected to the pounding of the music and the dancers' feet above them at the club.

Sharks, rays, and other aquatic animals confined to tanks are denied everything that is natural and important to them, such as swimming long distances and in straight lines, hunting and foraging for food, and experiencing ocean tides and currents. PETA is offering to assist Yassine in developing exciting alternative entertainment at the club that won't cause animals to suffer.

"Using sharks and rays as bar decorations is cruel and sure to turn off compassionate patrons," says PETA Director Debbie Leahy. "People go to nightclubs to have fun, not to torment animals. What could be more exciting than having mermaids swimming—of their own free will—beneath the dancers ?"

PETA's letter to Qua Bottle Lounge's Mike Yassine follows.

October 18, 2007

Mike Yassine, President

Yassine Enterprises

213 W. Fourth St., #200

Austin, TX 78701-3939

Dear Mr. Yassine:

PETA is an international nonprofit organization with more than 1.8 million members and supporters worldwide dedicated to animal protection. Although the Qua Bottle Lounge has just opened its doors, we have received many complaints regarding the sharks and rays held captive in the dance floor tank, including allegations that a number of the animals have already died. We urge you to place the animals in a more suitable environment and use this tank in a creative way that does not put live animals in harm’s way.

Sharks have exceptional sensory systems that allow them to detect minute electrical fields and hear and sense low-frequency sounds and vibrations. Rays also have very keen senses. There is no doubt that the sharks and rays at your nightclub detect the pounding vibrations of the club’s music as well as the dancers on top of the tank—in fact, the water reportedly ripples with the beat of the music, and the animals swim in a frantic manner. Despite the purported “soundproof” acrylic cover, the vibrations, lights, and sounds create a confusing and stressful atmosphere for the animals trapped inside the tank, agitating and tormenting them. The animals are being denied all the rich sensory experiences of their natural environment, the ability to swim freely, and the opportunity to hunt and forage for food.

We’ve also been notified that at least three sharks have allegedly died and that one is said to be sick and on antibiotic treatment. As these animals continue to be subjected to the stressful and unnatural conditions of a nightclub, the death toll will mount. This mistreatment will identify Qua as an irresponsible and uncaring enterprise rather than the innovative entertainment establishment that downtown Austin desires.

There are many cruelty-free ways to use the tank, such as by having beautiful swimming “mermaids” titillate and entertain guests. Will you please make the compassionate decision to move the sharks and rays to an environment where they can better express their natural behaviors? We would be more than happy to help you brainstorm other ideas that would suit your nightclub’s atmosphere and clientele and to aid in publicizing your humane decision to relocate the sharks and rays.

May I please hear from you about this matter? Please contact me at 773-486-6786, by fax at 866-236-9220, or by e-mail at [email protected]. I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Daniel Hauff

Animals in Entertainment Specialist

[Headless_donkey]

Yes some would say this hobby is inhumane just like zoos, dog kennels, and giant shopping centers/buildings on the green belt.

I have personally stopped purchasing fish or coral that are not tanked raised or from someone else's tank. I do not take things out of the ocean any more. I do not keep sharks, rays, or especially batfish because maintaining the proper conditions is too difficult.

If keeping Harlequin shrimp is inhumane then keeping any meat eating pet is also. I did not train the shrimp to eat the starfish that is just the ONLY thing that keeps them alive. Let me tell you the inhumane part of Harlequin Shrimp. Starfish do not ship well. MANY die in transit. I am supporting that by having these two shrimp. My issue is: I can not release the shrimp into the ocean because they have been in captivity too long. However, I was not told this when I bought the fish and found out about it after the fact. To try and minimize my impact, I only buy the hardiest species of starfish. So yes, I made a mistake in purchasing then spreading the good word about the shrimp. Ignorance is never a defense that is why I am owning my mistake. I will not be breading or replacing these shrimp.

I also think the hole into the club for feeding negates any "sound proofing" that has been done.

I have heard the filtration is a big diotimatious earth filter. I understand that is a rumor. If the owner is soooo concerned about the animals and proving the are in good hands, why doesn't he announce publicly what the filtration method is? Maybe he could give a diagram and explanation on the club's website. Zoos and public aquariums do. And yes that is his responsibility, especially if he is going to invite school children and "conservation" group to his club to see the animals.

[Reefer]

After they are free, let's put the owners inside the tank and play "I would do anything for love" by Meatloaf over and over again. Dancing on a fishtank is just a retarded idea. Then again, so is paying 300-1000 dollars just to have a place to sit. How pretentious is that???? James, what does PETA have to say about this?

--A Loving Maastard.

[apr20vturbo]

You seem like you work there.

LOL I knew that was coming. No I don't work there but what would it matter if I owned the place?

I also talked to the same local suppliers that the owner originally called in to help him get it set up. They told him the problems with the set up and that it wouldn't work and he didn't like that and went to someone who would tickle his ears.

Or could the local suppliers be angry that the club didn't choose them...again this is all rumor, there is no proof.

While I agree that the way we keep fish may not be the "best" environment for them, we try to make there homes as healthy as possible.

Some people say that is not possible, what makes your opinion better than those that criticize our hobby…and to take it further what makes your opinion better than the club owner? Just because you think it's the "best" environment doesn't mean it is. Maybe that guy thinks that he has created the "best" environment for the sharks?

And if people follow the accepted rules about having fish in the proper sized tank for their type of fish then there is, and has been long-term success.

What do you define success as? Are the fish happy? Do you talk to them??

Picking on James for his shrimp is just stupid. Would it be more humane to let them starve? That is their natural food.

What makes you think I am picking on him? I do the same thing. I am bringing up a point that we KILL STARFISH. We have no problems with it, as we see it as natural…but is it? since when have star fish been confined in such a small area relative to their predator? For that matter what about the krill/brine shrimp I feed my tangs and triggers?

Are you a vegan? Do you own any leather?

Not in the slightest! I can't stand fruits and veggies

My point is there are a lot of animals that are killed by humans everyday, but where it becomes a problem is when they are put into positions where they cannot have a semi-healthy existence and are in effect being tortured daily that we need to do something about it.

Again this is said all the time about our hobby. Semi-healthy to you and semi-healthy to others is different. We are promoting a hobby that collects fish from the natural waters they come from, put them in tiny containers, ship them across the world, starve them, stress them etc. Many of them die on the way to the LFS and all because of our hobby.

[GKarshens]

Your arguments are like a 2 year old saying "why?" over and over again. There is solid scientific evidence that this is an unsafe environment for sharks. The local store turned him down not the other way around. You are obviously the only person on here that feels otherwise. My father always said "If everyone else thinks you are wrong, you probably are."

[apr20vturbo]

Yes some would say this hobby is inhumane just like zoos, dog kennels, and giant shopping centers/buildings on the green belt.

that was my point

I have personally stopped purchasing fish or coral that are not tanked raised or from someone else's tank. I do not take things out of the ocean any more. I do not keep sharks, rays, or especially batfish because maintaining the proper conditions is too difficult.

It doesnt matter if you have stopped, the damage is done. How can you fault this guy who may have been mis-informed as you were. He must have someone telling him this is humane and a great set-up for the animals. (IMO of course b/c I have no facts other than the news)

If keeping Harlequin shrimp is inhumane then keeping any meat eating pet is also.

you should also add if you use any medicine that was developed from animals/wear anything that has animals involved etc...Thats my point...I don't think its inhumane. I enjoy this hobby but I also don't think you can have double standards that say I can do it but you can't

I did not train the shrimp to eat the starfish that is just the ONLY thing that keeps them alive. Let me tell you the inhumane part of Harlequin Shrimp. Starfish do not ship well. MANY die in transit. I am supporting that by having these two shrimp. My issue is: I can not release the shrimp into the ocean because they have been in captivity too long. However, I was not told this when I bought the fish and found out about it after the fact. To try and minimize my impact, I only buy the hardiest species of starfish. So yes, I made a mistake in purchasing then spreading the good word about the shrimp. Ignorance is never a defense that is why I am owning my mistake. I will not be breading or replacing these shrimp.

It is not my intention to say that you are doing anything wrong as IMO I dont think you are. I am just saying you can't point fingers when we do the same thing

I also think the hole into the club for feeding negates any "sound proofing" that has been done.

I am not sure about that either...but I am not going to condemn the club for my lack of knowledge.

I have heard the filtration is a big diotimatious earth filter. I understand that is a rumor. If the owner is soooo concerned about the animals and proving the are in good hands, why doesn't he announce publicly what the filtration method is? Maybe he could give a diagram and explanation on the club's website. Zoos and public aquariums do. And yes that is his responsibility, especially if he is going to invite school children and "conservation" group to his club to see the animals.

I have no idea, why doesn't the club try to send him an email/letter/visit him and voice your concerns....although I doubt you will get very far for a while since PETA decided they didn't like the place. I would highly encourage you guys to do this…..that way you would know for sure what they are using and if it's human to you guys or not.

[apr20vturbo]

Your arguments are like a 2 year old saying "why?" over and over again. There is solid scientific evidence that this is an unsafe environment for sharks. The local store turned him down not the other way around. You are obviously the only person on here that feels otherwise. My father always said "If everyone else thinks you are wrong, you probably are."

insults?? really?

There is scientific evidence that this hobby has a much more negative impact on the ocean than this night club.

I apologize if the arguments are like a 2yr old to you, can you please humor me and if you have points other than name calling can you bring them up?

Edited October 19, 2007 by apr20vturbo

[+ACampbell]

apr20vturbo, how about some full disclosure please?

You sign up shortly after this threads creation to post a video that discredits PETA followed by line by line rebuttal of any discrediting statements.

Where you hired by the Qua Bottle Lounge to protect it's reputation?

[Reefer]

let's say that we do know for sure that their environment is silent, even though the reverberation of the music/speakers is more than likely to have some affect on the tank itself. PETA, is a group with some people that are more radical than we are. I am sure that these people see us as rapists just as much as this club owner. If we amassed all of the fish that have been harvested from the oceans to support our hobby, it pails in comparison to this pretentious place. While there are places that do sell tank-raised fish only (ORA) there are still some places that do not, and I am sure if the price tag is high enough, someone will feed you what you want to hear. That said, I am not saying there are fishy stores like this, just using it as a world-wide example.

On the other hand, our ecosystem thrives, and animals disappear. As responsible reefkeepers we have to understand that the food chain is not always balanced, and some species will die off on their own. I hate to see this club, but I would love to see how it is setup, and to have some kind of empirical evidence that I could attest to, but I highly doubt that will ever happen. I highly enjoy going to Kona Bar and Grill in San Antonio to see the huge tank they have there, and loved going to tha Aquarium Restaurant while in Houston. I never saw any of the filtration at those places, and never heard anything about the die off, and I am sure there have been deaths.

I also understand that sharks need space to swim. It is entirely the fault of the person ordering the sharks. Everyone has made a bad decision on fish to own, and some have bought them repeatedly until they found one hardy enough to withstand their environment. I.E. Mandarins.

I just think there is not enough evidence to fully support the theory that this is a truly bad environment for an aquarium, but it is a poor selection of stock.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Reefer

[Reefer]

I found this on their website www.quaaustin.com

Thank you for your interest in the sharks at QUA. We’ve had overwhelming response to our shark exhibit and I want to take this opportunity to address specific questions. While the community has been overwhelmingly positive, some people have understandably expressed concern for our marine animals.

The first misunderstanding is the shark exhibit is not a dance floor. The media has presented a “dance above the sharks” design which is inaccurate. If you look closely at the photo on our main page, you will notice the rope protecting the shark exhibit. As any of our guests will confirm, except for a small designated area (less than 8% of the entire surface area), we do not even allow standing above the sharks. By design, QUA is a lounge not a dance club and the music, while louder than a restaurant, is played at a level which never overpowers conversation.

The inner structure of the tank itself is solid poured concrete on all four sides. The four 3 inch clear acrylic panels on top are custom built and each weighs over a ton. There is approximately a 9 inch gap between the water surface and acrylic surface. It's physically impossible to disturb the water's surface from above the tank. The visual ripple on the surface is from the tank circulation system housed in a secure and soundproof room approximately 40 feet away.

We have a staff of highly educated and well trained individuals who spent months researching and developing the exhibit. For daily care and maintenance we have an employee who was most recently employed at Miami’s renowned Seaquarium and responsible for the water quality of the entire park.

We are well aware that sharks and other members of the Elasmobranch family have highly adept sensory features including ampulle of Lorenzini, designed to pick up electrical impulses in the water. We carefully observe our animals daily and have seen no signs of stress or change in behavior when people are present or music is played. Still, we have voluntarily contracted with an independent company to run a series of hydrophone tests in QUA. Our control tests will include the club while closed and at all levels of activity. These extensive tests are scheduled to be completed by October 29th and the results will be made public.

Some guests have noticed that some sharks are more active than others. We have two compatible species of shark at QUA, the Black Tip Reef Shark (Carcharhinus Melanopterus) which relies on ram ventilation to pass water over its gills to breathe, and the Leopard Shark (Stegostoma Fasciatum) which, due to a specialized muscle called a gill pump, can lie motionless at the bottom of the water for hours. The natural behavior of these two species might confuse some because the Black Tip requires constant motion while the Leopard alternates between swimming and resting.

Since both of these species (and the rays which share the exhibit) are opportunistic feeders, or scavengers, they will forage, not hunt. They are fed fresh seafood (from Whole Foods) daily. Every shark in the exhibit came to us from an environment where human care was provided. None have come from the wild.

We maintain an offsite facility reserved for any animal that might need special care or medical attention. Contrary to reports that multiple sharks have died recently, we have not lost a single shark that’s been housed in our exhibit. Unfortunately we did lose a shark in transportation to us, months before QUA opened.

We understand that some people will never be comfortable with animals living in a man-made space, no matter the size, design, or level of care. To the best of our ability and with considerable resources, we’ve created an environment that we believe is both healthy for our marine life and fascinating to our patrons. The inspiration for our shark exhibit is the amazing Shark Reef at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas, an AZA accredited facility.

I want to assure you that my entire staff share your love and respect for these amazing creatures and thank you for your interest and concern. If you have the opportunity to visit, I hope to personally welcome you at QUA.

Sincerely,

Mike Yassine

President and CEO

Yassine Enterprises, Inc.

213 West 4th St., Suite 200

Austin, TX 78701

office: 512 476 7088

[email protected]

[apr20vturbo]

apr20vturbo, how about some full disclosure please?

You sign up shortly after this threads creation to post a video that discredits PETA followed by line by line rebuttal of any discrediting statements.

Where you hired by the Qua Bottle Lounge to protect it's reputation?

I live in the DFW area and don't work for anything close to a bar....again what would it matter and why do you think the bar would even care what you guys thought?

Edited October 19, 2007 by apr20vturbo

[+ACampbell]

I live in the DFW area and don't work for anything close to a bar....again what would it matter and why do you think the bar would even care what you guys thought?

Thank you for your honest reply. Big money often hires people to try and neutralize their negative publicity.

Other than the sake of arguing, I don't know of any other motive for someone to work so diligently to try and disprove something that is obviously wrong.

I am not going to feed this flame by arguing with you. Please stop being detrimental to the spirit of this forum.