To Skim or not to skim...

[KevinB]

I know some of you here go without a skimmer...

In my 75G I've got 3.5" of live sand, 110lbs of LR, and a small 6" DSB in the 20g refugium. Currently I only have the one rabbitfish, skunk cleaner, 7 hermits, 3 turbo snails, and a couple of soft corals and a large feather duster. Even when my Tang was alive my nitrites/nitrates were at 0. I haven't run the skimmer in about a month. I know I've got tons of asteria stars, spaghetti worms, peanut worms, and a few bristle worms and mini brittle stars. I've also recently add a ball of chaeto to the fuge.

What are your opinions? Should I continue without a skimmer until I add a lot more fish? Should I add the skimmer if my nitrates climb? Should I continue without the skimmer under the assumption that my biological filtration is sufficient?

I should note that in the next week or so I'm going to add 40 dwarf cerith snails, 10 small hermits, and 15 florida ceriths. I'd also like to add a serpent star or something else to help with detritus.

Am I missing the point of the skimmer? Removing DOC is to prevent ammonia/nitrites/nitrates, right?

[Grim]

Try 12hr on and 12hr off and see how that works its all about experimenting when in a hobbie like so

but what may work for others my not work for you but I'm sure you've heard that one before and then go from there....

[troypt]

I have a 125 gallon tank. Right now it has 14 fish including 2 hippo tangs and haven't run a skimmer in almost 5 years, no problems

[KevinB]

Wow Troy, can you tell me more about your setup?

[Grim]

I have a 125 gallon tank. Right now it has 14 fish including 2 hippo tangs and haven't run a skimmer in almost 5 years, no problems

Any pics?

[Timfish]

. . . Removing DOC is to prevent ammonia/nitrites/nitrates, right?

Jason Jones started this thread late last year and he links to research done by Ken Feldman (I don't remember the University):http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/20307-studies-on-the-effects-of-protein-skimming

DOC has a lot of different "types" and at best skimming only removes a third. Some of my tanks have gone 15+ years without skimming so I don't consider it necessary. I would point out no one has yet done long term (as in decades) side by side research of different filtering methodologies to see which system is best for the long term maintenance of a system. This is pure speculation on my part but I would not be surprised if research shows that if protien skimming is used one set of problems may be more likely to occur and if protien skimming is not used a different set of problems is more likely to occur.

[subsea]

+1 for Troy. I have been skimerless for ten years. Kevin, you have much biological filtration. The more you feed it, the more it grows. Your population of mico fauna and fana is a strong indicator of the maturity of your system. When I worked offshore, I would be away for 28 days on and 28 days off. No one feed my system when I was gone. The refugium feed my system. It had a soft mud bottom with much biodiversity of worms and stuff. The chaeto matrix had many more pods and worms and feather duster. When I was home and feed heavily this matrix of chaeto and pods, worms , tunicates and other stuff grew in mass as it feed the display tank. When I was not home, this same matrix of living filter would shrink in mass as it continued to feed the display tank. While the skimmer removes nutriants, is that a good thing compared to the dynamic equilibrium of these biological filters. As living filters they consume much oxygen and if deprived of air water circulation, these oxygen consumers will kill fish in just a few hours. While I do not use protein skimmers, I do use surface skimmers on all my tanks.

[KevinB]

Patrick that's an excellent point I hadn't thought about, surface skimming in relation to oxygen transfer. I need to do something to improve my own surface skimming.

If I'm not running a skimmer, is it more important to use foam or filter socks for mechanical filtration? I was using filter socks on my overflow, but cleaning them constantly grew to be a pita. I've been without mechanical filtration for 3 weeks now.

[subsea]

I have no mechanical filtration. I use carbon in small amounts changed frequently.

Without mechanical filtration, I sometimes see squiggle lines in the water. It does not bother me, I consider it good zooplankton in the water column.

In the case of a 135G lagoon tank biotheme I am beginning, I will have no surface skimming. I intend to build a surge device to provide a wave surge. We will see how to operate without a surface skimmer.

[KevinB]

What benefits are there to the small amount of carbon you use, and what do you consider frequent?

[Michae52]

Kevin there are many ways to run a system. My friend Patrick is going to build a 135 gal lagoon system without a skimmer, but with a surge generator, a deep sand bed, and plenty of algae and I think he is even going to add gulf coast marsh mud under the sand in places to plant macro algaes. I do not know if he is going to use a refugium, but I am assuming that Patrick will. I am working on a 40 gal lagoon system without a skimmer as well. However, I will use a much thinner sand bed, but will use Mangrove trees to help with the PO4. I will also be using very porous live rock for the main filtration. The main difference will be that I will use filter feeders, sponges, featherdusters,soft corals, clams,and the like. I as well, will use planted macro algaes to help with the NO3 and PO4. What will be interesting is that I will put one-third the bio-load as Pat's. It will be interesting to see how the water parameters compare. Just two different ways to appoarch the same problem. I also use a reagent grade carbon to help polish the water and help remove impurities.

[subsea]

What benefits are there to the small amount of carbon you use, and what do you consider frequent?

I use about a cup of carbon changed every two weeks. Carbon can change chemistry of the water very quickly, by using a small amount in relation to system volumn, nothing drastic can happpen. Because of its small volumn, it will be depleted quicker, thus more frequent replacement.

[troypt]

_{I am at work right now but will try to get some pictures in the next day or two. I read lots of Eric Borneman stuff and decided ~5 years ago to stop using a skimmer. I have no mechanical filtration. I have a tank that prof (did a great job by the way) custom built for me for my fuge which is divided into 4 sections. Each section has a different make-up- cheato, DSB, crushed coral, live rock-but less light, to try to have slightly different habitats for biodiversity. I wish the compartments were bigger, but I couldn't fit anything bigger in the stand. I didn't do water changes for ~2 years, but have since started doing a ~10-15% water change once a quarter. My tank has issues every now and then, but I don't think it is related to be skimmerless. I had a hair algea outbreak ~1.5 years ago. It lasted for a few months and is gone. I recently had an outbreak of cyano on my sand bed for a few weeks, but it is also pretty much gone (I think that was from cleaning out part of my fuge and stirring up some stuff.)}

_{In my opinion there are many ways to run a tank that work. Some people like lots of different equipment and so forth and it works for them. Personally, I don't like to have to do a lot to my tank, but look at it and enjoy it. Somedays, I get in the mood to do more and then I can, but somedays I don't want to have to clean this or do that. My daily routine is to feed the tank and dump in 1 gallon of kalkwater (pickling lime added to the water) for top off. I also just mix the kalkwater up and dump it straight in.}

[KevinB]

Troy I like your approach...I was approaching my tank with the same attitude...infrequent water changes, make your biodiversity find a balance and work FOR you to keep most things in check. I'm not out to create the most pristine environment to host a tank full of SPS and delicate fish. I just want something I will enjoy, and if I have to constantly empty the skimmer cup, clean the neck, clean the filter socks, and do water changes, it's not something I enjoy...it's a second job. I don't mind a little algae here and there, as long as it's somewhat under control and I've got CUC that will eat it. I prefer the natural method that many others here seem to prefer.

[FarmerTy]

Kevin,

How old is your tank? How long have you been keeping a coral tank? I ask mainly to see the level of experience you have with being able to spot changes in your system before anything catastrophic occurs. I think a majority of the people who responded in your post I would consider expert reefers who have been through a multitude of years of reef keeping and have tried most systems out there as far as how to set up their tank. They are using more advanced techniques than the average hobbyists.

IMHO, I think the safe route to go is to start with a skimmer. Think of it as your safety net. If you shut it off for awhile and nothing goes bad in your tank, you can live without it. I can run my tank fine without a skimmer but I have it there just in case something dies and I don't notice in time, or the solid carbon dosing system dumps tons of bacteria in my tank without me realizing. Its just backup for me but I feel is needed. My girlfriend may accidentally dump a ton of food into the tank and it makes me feel better knowing the skimmer will keep things in check for the most part, until I can address the issue if I am out of town.

Again, just my 2 cents to take what's useful from it if anything at all. Haha. Hopefully I didn't offend anybody in the post so far, I actually think I complemented you guys for being "expert reefers". :-)

[Woods]

Kevin,

Troy is a good friend and after 25 years of keeping FW and 3 years of Troy trying to convince me to do SW, I finally put my toe in with a 29g Biocube and was hooked before I ever even got a fish in the tank as I waited the 3 months for it to cycle and mature. I started planning my 180g FW to SW conversion and made the change in July this past year. I have adopted Troys approach as well. My setup is slightly different than Troys but I am keeping with his overall philosophies.

If you ever want to come take a look, feel free to contact me...

[KevinB]

Kevin,

How old is your tank? How long have you been keeping a coral tank? I ask mainly to see the level of experience you have with being able to spot changes in your system before anything catastrophic occurs. I think a majority of the people who responded in your post I would consider expert reefers who have been through a multitude of years of reef keeping and have tried most systems out there as far as how to set up their tank. They are using more advanced techniques than the average hobbyists.

IMHO, I think the safe route to go is to start with a skimmer. Think of it as your safety net. If you shut it off for awhile and nothing goes bad in your tank, you can live without it. I can run my tank fine without a skimmer but I have it there just in case something dies and I don't notice in time, or the solid carbon dosing system dumps tons of bacteria in my tank without me realizing. Its just backup for me but I feel is needed. My girlfriend may accidentally dump a ton of food into the tank and it makes me feel better knowing the skimmer will keep things in check for the most part, until I can address the issue if I am out of town.

Again, just my 2 cents to take what's useful from it if anything at all. Haha. Hopefully I didn't offend anybody in the post so far, I actually think I complemented you guys for being "expert reefers". :-)

The tank has been cycled for about 4 months now...The skimmer has been off for a month now, and my parameters have not changed. Are we not more or less just talking about DOC that can turn into ammonia? If there's no nitrates, then logic follows that your biological filter is doing its job. Is there a certain point when DOC becomes so high your biofilter can't handle it? I'm sure there is, but I'm new and don't know where that line is, and I'm sure it's different for every tank.

So yes, I'm new to saltwater, but I think I can pull off the same results working off the research and advice of others, along with some trial and error along the way. I hope that what I have in the tank and they way it's been running shows that the system is working, but as you mentioned other than stressed fish, die off, or bad water parameters, I don't know what to look for.

I'm hoping it's actually easier for someone new to use natural methods to stabilize a tank, rather than harder.

[subsea]

Kevin, I like your attitude about natural reefkeeping being easier than the hi-tech approach. However, it is necessary to monitor your system. Your abundant populations of micro fauna and fana is the best proof of a healthy system. When biodiversity is not so apparrant, what other methods are useful monitoring tools. Test parameters, note changes, document dates. With respect to nutriant levels, if you input too much then the normal outcome besides hi nitrate and phosphate is nusance algae. A balance of janitors, plants and food input is the name of the game.

Maybe the Moody Blues had it right in 1967 with "A Question of Balance".

Patrick

[KevinB]

Thanks for the advice Patrick, I look forward to visiting your place sometime

[subsea]

Thanks for the advice Patrick, I look forward to visiting your place sometime

Kevin, you have an open invite.

Patrick

[FarmerTy]

Kevin,

Sounds like you are looking at it the right way. I did all the research in the world before I started and I still goofed here and there when I tried different approaches... added to much livestock, accidentally stirred up the sand too much.... etc... you get the point. The skimmer being on was a life saver in several instances. I guess you can go with the approach of just turning it on when needed. Or if you feel comfortable enough with your natural biofilters, then get rid of your skimmer. I still like to have my "training wheels" in case I fall... cause if I do, there's a whole lot of animals that will die because of me.