AquaJohn Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 so if fish are not going to be kept in differnt tanks and you have treated and held my fish for 3-4 weeks. 3 hours before I pick up my fish a newly added fish is added to the tank that had ICH with no visable signs dont that risk contamination ? I am not knocking it any service is a great addition to the hobby and I do see a market for it. I just thought part of QT a fish was to keep a new fish out of contact with other new fish for 4-6 weeks to make sure the life cycle of ich has come and gone and there is no danger to your main display. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wa1tx Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 If I bought an expensive fish I would definitely use the service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 so if fish are not going to be kept in differnt tanks and you have treated and held my fish for 3-4 weeks. 3 hours before I pick up my fish a newly added fish is added to the tank that had ICH with no visable signs dont that risk contamination ? I am not knocking it any service is a great addition to the hobby and I do see a market for it. I just thought part of QT a fish was to keep a new fish out of contact with other new fish for 4-6 weeks to make sure the life cycle of ich has come and gone and there is no danger to your main display. The way it would work is that all new fish would first be put in tanks with copper and furan2 and would remain there for 2 weeks with other fish. Copper treatment only takes 2 weeks to rid the fish of ich. At that point they would be ich free and bacteria free and could then be moved to seperate system without copper and furan2 where they would be treated for internal parasites together with other fish (prazipro). The fish would be housed in this system for at least a week for the treatment to work and would remain there until being picked up. No new fish would be placed in the system with the fish that were ready to be picked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Just my .02, If you decide to embark on this endeavour, I'd recommend looking into the laws for practising veterinary medicine. It may be a fine line as you are treating other folk's fish, providing medicine, and housing them. I'm not saying that it is illegal or not but I'd definitely check with a lawyer. You don't want to get nailed for practising medicine without a license and this sounds fairly close. Housing fish would be OK IMO. The medicine and treating may be over the edge. I don't think this is a terrible idea, but I would not expose myself to undue legal attention. Know the rules before you do this. Grog All of the medications can be bought over the counter. I appreciate the thought but I'm not worried about this being a problem, my lawyer charges me $400 an hour so I would have to QT lots of fish to even pay for that lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 You'd make a fortune if you started a "train your mandarin/scooter blenny to eat mysis" tank. Just saying.... The school for persnickety and obstinate Mandarines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilkerfish Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Would you consider adding delivery service for a fee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Would you consider adding delivery service for a fee? biocubed actually works for me and drives back and forth from my office everyday to north austin, he has agreed to deliver and pickup fish for a small fee to make it easier for people to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaJohn Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Sounds like a good plan and should work fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 The only reason i voted no was cause i have a qt set up and its out of the way and already cycled. But if i didnt have the time or space and i didnt wanna deal with it, i would use the service. Id have to check out the person and the set up, and have to get some type of assurance or document that makes sure ill get my fish when the qt period is over. Im a bit paranoid about being screwed over, and i do not trust people at all most of the time. In this economy everything counts lol. For someone like me, what would make me feel completely comfortable would be for the person quarantining the fish to purchase it for/from me, then when its ready, i would gladly pay for the fish and the qt. Its good to hear that you have a cycled QT in place already, I think that you are one of the few that does. There would definitely be paperwork in place to protect both parties, I agree with that for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (I voted what I thought was realistic, I have my own QT so I wouldn't actually be using this service.) AquaJohn and some other have made some good points about how "sticky" a service like this could be but it seems to me this could be very useful for some hobbiests. Regal (aka Hippo aka Dory aka Palette aka Pacific Blue) Tangs have been brought up and I think they provide several good examples why this would work: One, they can often be so scittish when small they really need a large QT with multiple dither fish and hidding places to settle in and start eating and keeping and maintaining a large QT often is beyond the scope of hobbiests (it seems reasonable to me a hobbyest who has room for a 20 gal QT would still benefit using this service if they wanted a 4-5" Regal or other large fish for their DT). My experience ideally they should be kept as a group initially requireing an even larger QT which makes it even less likely a hobbiest has space or time. It would add cost to a fish but in the case of Regal Tangs I would expect the best survival rate would be achieved if they could be kept for 6 months in a group 'til they had grown out some and were eating well and a service like Hydro is proposing would be an ideal way of doing this. As far as medicating fish I had an intersting conversation a few years ago with a vetinarian (so laws may have changed) but it was illegal for him to prescribe and sell Metronidiazole without examining the fish first while it was perfectly legal for me to go into a store and buy it without needing a prescription. I would point out while QT greatly reduces some common communicable pathogens no matter how long the quarantine time wether it be 4 weeks or 6 months there are still a vast range of diseases a fish can have that would not be caught and at our current understanding are undiagnosable and/or untreatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 (I voted what I thought was realistic, I have my own QT so I wouldn't actually be using this service.) AquaJohn and some other have made some good points about how "sticky" a service like this could be but it seems to me this could be very useful for some hobbiests. Regal (aka Hippo aka Dory aka Palette aka Pacific Blue) Tangs have been brought up and I think they provide several good examples why this would work: One, they can often be so scittish when small they really need a large QT with multiple dither fish and hidding places to settle in and start eating and keeping and maintaining a large QT often is beyond the scope of hobbiests (it seems reasonable to me a hobbyest who has room for a 20 gal QT would still benefit using this service if they wanted a 4-5" Regal or other large fish for their DT). My experience ideally they should be kept as a group initially requireing an even larger QT which makes it even less likely a hobbiest has space or time. It would add cost to a fish but in the case of Regal Tangs I would expect the best survival rate would be achieved if they could be kept for 6 months in a group 'til they had grown out some and were eating well and a service like Hydro is proposing would be an ideal way of doing this. As far as medicating fish I had an intersting conversation a few years ago with a vetinarian (so laws may have changed) but it was illegal for him to prescribe and sell Metronidiazole without examining the fish first while it was perfectly legal for me to go into a store and buy it without needing a prescription. I would point out while QT greatly reduces some common communicable pathogens no matter how long the quarantine time wether it be 4 weeks or 6 months there are still a vast range of diseases a fish can have that would not be caught and at our current understanding are undiagnosable and/or untreatable. +1 I will be buying some fish too that will be sold out of the QT when they are ready (like timfish mentioned). I hadn't brought it up yet but my plan is to start a divers den type site, just on a much smaller scale. I plan to only deal with harder to keep fish, harder to get fish, and rare fish. Since I'm limited on space I intend to get the best dollars per gallon out of my system. For example I plan to keep schools of anthias in stock and will only sell them when they are out of QT, fat, and eating frozen, flakes, and pellets. Mandarins and scooter blennies trained to eat frozen (already discussed). Leopard wrasses and potters wrasses trained to eat frozen. Achilles tangs, goldflake angels, crosshatch triggers, black tangs, morish idols, chevron tangs, flame wrasses to name a few. This is still a work in progress, currently I'm trying to setup my system and then I will need to cycle it before I can get started.The site will be www.wysiwygfish.com, the link goes no where just yet, working on that too. Once I have some stuff for sale I'll be buying a sponsorship here and couple other forums. I don't think this venture will be that profitable but I like the challenge and I'm at the office all day anyways, and I love this hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannerfish Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Would there even be a legal issue if you bought the fish from us or bought it for is? technically it would be your fish at that point .... now your divers Den idea is definitely something id love to have near me. I would much rather buya fish like that than have it waiting around at a fish store in who knows what conditions for who knows how long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+brian.srock Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Plus bio will deliver so no waiting on brown anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Bio)³ Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Plus bio will deliver so no waiting on brown anymore Yes and when I delivery I actually CARE about the packages as I will be around them 40 hours a week. I won't be jostling you fish around, tossing the box from shelf to shelf searching for packages. I'll deliver in the evening so you won't have to worry about missing a bunch of work waiting for the other guys to show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Would there even be a legal issue if you bought the fish from us or bought it for is? technically it would be your fish at that point .... now your divers Den idea is definitely something id love to have near me. I would much rather buya fish like that than have it waiting around at a fish store in who knows what conditions for who knows how long. Well I wouldn't purchase a fish that I was QTing. If you go to one of our LFS and bought a fish, brought it to me, then I buy from you, I QT for you, then you buy back from me. That's a real hassle and I wouldn't do it too because I would have to gurarantee a fish that I have no idea what's been through. If that fish were to die within a couple of days then I would be out all the money even if I had done nothing wrong. If I buy a fish for you from a wholesaler for example I could afford to offer a guarantee for those fish, just like any other retialer that offers a warranty. I would suggest if you are considering a service like this to buy your fish from a retailer that offers a gurantee. This way if the fish dies within the 2 weeks (which we know is the critical time) then you can get a replacement and try again. About wysiwgfish, thanks I'm glad that you like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua-Dome Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hydro, why not observe the fish for the first week without medication? If a fish comes in okay it comes in okay. And I do love your adult mimic- chances are robert got it from the Dome as a juvi... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hydro, why not observe the fish for the first week without medication? If a fish comes in okay it comes in okay. And I do love your adult mimic- chances are robert got it from the Dome as a juvi... Thanks, he probably did That's a great question and I would be glad to hear any suggestions that would have to improve the process. The reason that I would treat right away is because of how quickly fish can go downhill. I hate to even talk about my deceased triggers but they were healthy and eating well...then 48 hrs later they were dead of a bacteria infection that spread from the female, then to the male, and then to a bimac anthias. I feel like if I were to wait for something to happen....ich, bacteria, internal parasites, then by the time I started treating it might be to late. I've ready about Divers Den QT methods and although they don't say the order of their treatments they do say that every incoming fish is treated for everything. What is the benefit to observing before treatment? I would assume the answer is to avoid the stress of treatment if not necessary. In your opinion how stressful is the treatment process? thanks Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mel in Elgin Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 You'd make a fortune if you started a "train your mandarin/scooter blenny to eat mysis" tank. Just saying.... I was thinking the exact same thing. I want a mandarin so badly, but not confident in my ability to train it to eat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offroadodge Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I can give props to Hydro for QTing, i recently bought 2 fish coral beauty and a copperband. Everyone know the issues with CBs (eating). well Hydro QTd both and i put them into my tank Tuesday. The coral beauty had no issues with tankmates, on the other hand the CB and my sailfin just couldnt get along. So as i watched and scared the tang away from CB for 2hrs until i went to bed my thoughts were well i bet i wake up to a dead CB or a CB that has ICH. All i can say is even threw all the bullying he didnt get ich and is still eating like a pig. I whole heartidly believe in QTing NO matter what. Just isnt worht loosing a fish for the $ we pay for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesdean3 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) your triggers died? Edited February 4, 2012 by jamesdean3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 your triggers died? you really gotta watch what your getting yourself into here. Had those been my fish and me and you didn't sign an official (from a lawyer) waiver i WOULD be coming after you for my money that i paid for the livestock and your QT service would be free. Also, coming from a vet. background i believe your going to need to be certified to treat animals with meds, and "hospital" them , not just decide your going into business. Vet is a businees yes, but it is medical first and for that you need to be certified. The diver's den idea might work, but just google starting your own fish store and hear about the LONG up road hill you'll face before you see any profits, (if any). The mark up you would need to have on these fish to account for all your loses and upkeeps would turn myself off and lead me to keeping my QT running. If you go into this with "having fun" mindset you'll be ok, just don't expect it t pay the bills. No I don't expect to pay the bills from it, if it wasn't worth it I would simply stop doing it at any time. Like I said before there would be paperwork in place between both parties to protect both parties. A person QTing their fish would have the oppritunity to see the system, no what the fish were being treated for, and the method for doing it. If they agree to that procedure then they are taking the risk of having their fish go through this treatment process. A person must ask themselves too if they can offer a better QT process for their fish. If the answer is "no" then they are giving the fish the best chance of survival by leaving them with me and at the same time they are protecting their DT. If the fish dies in the best enviroment offered then the best was done for that fish, that's at least the way I see it at least. My triggers died from a bacteria infection, not from the QT process. I didn't give them the infection, they actually arrived with it. My point is that had they been your fish or my fish, I actually didn't kill them or cause them to die. However I could have prevented them from dying had I medicated them in a different order, that's what I learned. When you buy a fish you are putting WAAAY more trust in the vendor then what you would be with me. What I mean by that is you have no idea how the fish was treated or what it was exposed to before it arrived, they get shipped with disease all the time. At least with my service everything is very transparent and you know exactly what you are getting. Also you have to realize too that the QT process isn't to only save the fish you just bought, its also designed to keep the parasite/infection from being introduced in to the DT. I was very succesful at that since my triggers were never introduced to the DT. If the triggers were your fish and they died here during the QT process from the same infection then you would blame me for the death but IMO you would need to blame the vendor instead for shipping sick fish. If you would have opted not to QT them and introduced them in your tank you would have lost the triggers and possibly the rest of the fish in your tank. If YOU QTed them and they died of the infection would you blame yourself for that? The only mistake I made with those fish is not treating them for bacteria infections first, I'm not making that mistake anymore. Belive it or not the triggers dying is one of the reasons that pushed me forward in to doing this. I've QT lots if fish and have never dealt with a bacteria infection before. I certainly learn well from my mistakes through the death of fish in the past. What I learned from this death is how quickly a bacteria infection can take a fish and that antibiotics needs to be administered first. I also learned more about what medications can be used together too, like cupramine and furan2. I know many people haven't spent the time to learn about diseases and haven't spent the time and money setting up a full on QT system. Because of that a good precentage of livestock dies and I think that I can help stop that from happening. Will I be able to save every fish? No but I will certainly try to. I'm not doing this for the money trust me. I'm doing it because I like helping people and I love this hobby. I also hate for animals to die and I think that I can prevent at least some of that. I just put 5 fish through the procedure that included, copper band, pipe fish, hippo tang, yellow tang, and coral beauty. The little hippo and yellow tang came from petco and were covered in ich, both made it out just fine ich free. All had no problem with the treatment and in fact ate well through the entire process. I certainly don't claim to know it all, please don't misunderstand. I can offer your fish a procedure that has worked really well for me in the past. This procedure is to get rid of ich, infections, internal and external parasites. I'll treat the livestock according to the directions on the package and keep the water clean, this is the only gurantee that I make. I can only claim the success of what the medication is capable of and no more. This isn't a perfect method and I don't claim to be a vet or diagnose any diseases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaarrrggg Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Really excited about the idea of a local DD!! On mandarins, I hope you might consider only getting in tank bred ones (ORA.) I always think its a shame to get in any WC fish once they've been successfully CB. I've heard ORA ones can still be picky on eating non-live food, so there would still be a challenge there, but hopefully not nearly as hard as training a WC one. Sign me up for a nice fat CB Mandy come Xmas time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Really excited about the idea of a local DD!! On mandarins, I hope you might consider only getting in tank bred ones (ORA.) I always think its a shame to get in any WC fish once they've been successfully CB. I've heard ORA ones can still be picky on eating non-live food, so there would still be a challenge there, but hopefully not nearly as hard as training a WC one. Sign me up for a nice fat CB Mandy come Xmas time! I think that is a great idea, seems like they would be easier to train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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