Some beginner questions...

[KevinB]

Hi all, just starting out my first saltwater tank. It's a 75g with a 20g long sump/refugium. I'm getting ready to finalize the plumbing, install the RO/DI unit, add the water, and order my live rock from florida.

My questions:

Should I buy and cure the live rock and let the tank cycle before I set up the Refugium? Or should it be set up at the same time? I've got lots of time to kill before I plan on buying any real livestock, so if it is better to cycle first, then set up the refugium, it might cause a mini cycle, but I've got the time to kill. What are your opinions on this?

Also, what are your opinions on refugium substrate? I'm planning on a 5" dsb in there, but I'm clueless about the substrate...mud? sugar fine sand? Live sand from florida with my LR order? Aragonite? Live aragonite? etc, etc, etc.

Speaking of live rock from florida, I assume I'm going to have a few mantis shrimps or other unwanted hitchhikers...do any local fish stores take these for credit?

Lastly, I plan on using chaeto in the fuge. What are your thoughts on fuge flow? Right now I'm using a small dedicated pump from my overflow outlet chamber that flows about 120gph. The fuge is approximately 4-5 gallons, including the volume for the dsb.

Thanks!

[AquaJohn]

I would set it all up at one time and get it over with . As far as the deep sand bed for it to really work like its suposed to you need several layers of different types of "sand" you can find detailed instructions on how to do the DSB with google.as for flow I would go with make the cheto move a bit but not enough to mess with the sand bed. If you order live rock by the time it gets to you most critters are going to be dead anyways its shipped dry or at most a splash of water or wet paper.

[Robb in Austin]

I'd reconsider the live rock option. Unless you are getting Tampa Bay Saltwater rock/sand, you'll still have die off.

Dead rock is cheaper by far, can be had locally, avoids pests, and is easier to aquascape.

For the fuge, you can tee off your return for flow in order to avoid another pump.

[subsea]

Set both up at the same time.

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/cleanupcrew.html

This site describes the clean up crew and also lays out start-up. The next step is "Patience is a Virtue". Do not add higher level predators, including fish and corals for six months. Allow the micro fauna and flora to develope before predatation.

http://www.inlandaquatics.com/info/faq_lsand.html

This site breaks down the different size media to be included in the sandbed. It also sells detrivore kits and refugium kits.

With respect to refugium substrate, after reading info at the two sites you will understand better which bugs live in which media. I like mud filtration because of the diversity of the critters that live in it.

http://www.reefland.com/articles/rho/best-plants-and-algae-for-refugia-part-II-vegetable-filters

This article by Anthony Calfo gives good advice on the use of macro algae in the refugium.

Enjoy the journey,

Patrick

[Richard L]

I'd reconsider the live rock as well. Today there are several good alternatives. I just used Real Reef rock for my build and I am really impressed so far with it. This stuff looks good and is man made so it is dead, dead, dead. I ramped up the nitrifying bacteria with Dr. Tim's 1 and Only solution and at 5 weeks, ammonia and nitrite have only been a blip in my daily testing.

[KevinB]

Thanks for all the help...gives me some things to think about

[Timfish]

Peyote, is the rock you're getting from Florida aquacultured? If so it's going to be pretty much the same as "Real Rock". I've started tanks with Florida aquacultured rock with very good success and seen little or no "cycle" when used with live sand. The cultured rock I've used recently has been pest free but but it was cultured in raceways like "Real Rock" is. If you are getting stuff that was cultured in the open ocean you can expect more diversity of animals (and the possibility of caribean corals) but you should go ahead and "cure" it in a separate tank like you would wild live rock (my preference). Robb makes a good point about aquascaping with dry rock. You could do most of it with dry local rock then add live sand and a few nice pieces of live rock. I've had very good results this way using about 1/4 lb per gal. When you add water to your tank to start it up I would do the refugium at the same time. As far as how to set up the system there are some good points above the only thing I would add is keep it simple and easy to access and maintain.

[+Mcjudge]

Here is a problem I ran into. I bought live rock that came from Florida via Aquadome. I spent so much on the rock budget wise i had to wait to buy sand. All of my rock was in the display. When I started adding sand (a month later) I noticed there was substantial more worms and live stuff happenging in my display than in my DSB in my refugium(because I didn't add any rock to the refugium). You can seed it yourself by transfering sand to and from your display but you run the risk of disturbing your dsb and releasing bad things into the water. I really think you need Live Rock just for the worms and other flora/fauna to seed your dsb in your refugium. I have been up and running since august with zero algae problems and no cyano issues. I bought a mix of dead argonite and live bacteria sand. (not live sand from someones tank) You can also seed your sand/refugium with an order from http://www.ipsf.com/. Make sure you get the mama mia worms because they are so cool looking. I would also recommend having them all up and running together, in fact I would even say it might be smart to have your refugium running before your display. The die-off will give your macro algae the nutrients it needs to get a good start.

[KevinB]

Here is a problem I ran into. I bought live rock that came from Florida via Aquadome. I spent so much on the rock budget wise i had to wait to buy sand. All of my rock was in the display. When I started adding sand (a month later) I noticed there was substantial more worms and live stuff happenging in my display than in my DSB in my refugium(because I didn't add any rock to the refugium). You can seed it yourself by transfering sand to and from your display but you run the risk of disturbing your dsb and releasing bad things into the water. I really think you need Live Rock just for the worms and other flora/fauna to seed your dsb in your refugium. I have been up and running since august with zero algae problems and no cyano issues. I bought a mix of dead argonite and live bacteria sand. (not live sand from someones tank) You can also seed your sand/refugium with an order from http://www.ipsf.com/. Make sure you get the mama mia worms because they are so cool looking. I would also recommend having them all up and running together, in fact I would even say it might be smart to have your refugium running before your display. The die-off will give your macro algae the nutrients it needs to get a good start.

Your tips make a lot of sense, thanks!

[KevinB]

Peyote, is the rock you're getting from Florida aquacultured? If so it's going to be pretty much the same as "Real Rock". I've started tanks with Florida aquacultured rock with very good success and seen little or no "cycle" when used with live sand. The cultured rock I've used recently has been pest free but but it was cultured in raceways like "Real Rock" is. If you are getting stuff that was cultured in the open ocean you can expect more diversity of animals (and the possibility of caribean corals) but you should go ahead and "cure" it in a separate tank like you would wild live rock (my preference). Robb makes a good point about aquascaping with dry rock. You could do most of it with dry local rock then add live sand and a few nice pieces of live rock. I've had very good results this way using about 1/4 lb per gal. When you add water to your tank to start it up I would do the refugium at the same time. As far as how to set up the system there are some good points above the only thing I would add is keep it simple and easy to access and maintain.

I plan on ordering about 40 lbs of premium encrusted rock from www.floridaliverock.com. Part of my aquaculture design is going to include a large pillar or column. Since I don't like the columns I've seen made of stacked rocks or fake rock, I'm going to try to get hold of a large rock that can serve a a column on its own.

I also plan on supplementing that with around 30-40 lbs of dry rock or low grade live rock. As far as artificial rock goes, I've never really liked most of what I've seen.