Am I Nuts?

[Wippit]

Wryknow has a 215 for sale. Everything I read about SW says that "bigger is better" in terms of tank size. I'm wondering if there's a practical limit to this philosophy, especially since I notice that 75-120 gallons seems to be the common range of tank capacity. What I'd like to ask concerns the day-to-day practicality of a system this (or similar) size, especially the long-term maintenance that would need to be done on a system this size.

First, the real question: is Ben off his meds for even thinking about a tank this big? Should this be best left to more experienced SW folks? I want to be more in love with my tank in a year, not feeling like a slave to it.

- What do you do with up to 40 gallons of "old" salt water at water change times? Can you dump it down the sink? If so, doesn't it rust everything out?

- Did you have to do partial changes of substrate? If so, how much at a time?

- Do equipment costs scale up proportionally (ie, does it cost about twice as much as equipping a 110 gallon)?

- Anything I forgot/didn't know to ask?

BTW, I called AquaTek and got an estimate of $200 to move this beast.

TIA,

Ben

Edited December 16, 2009 by roberts0909

[Robb in Austin]

The fact that you are asking this question leads me to answer thusly; no you are not nuts.

Now to the meat of your question:

a) down the drain mine goes.

b) I do not believe so, but I'll defer to those with more experience.

c) in a word, yes. But the bigger cost, IMO, will be in maintenance costs/day to day costs. Making 215g of RODI water costs more than making 110g, this applies to salt costs, water change costs, electrical costs, etc.

d) do you have the space for it? Spousal approval, if applicable?

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with starting that big. More volume=more stability. Just go slow, ask lots of questions, and do a metric ton of research on livestock and what you want to do with it.

The only downside I see is when you get the bug to upgrade...

[Wippit]

Thanks, Robb.

I see you're an old married guy like me. Yes, I got The Boss' buy-in early. There are no old married guys that don't; they're called old single guys.

Space, yes.

RO/DI brings up a topic that I need to post on also.

When I upgrade The Boss will probably make me take a job in Monaco.

(I once saw Iron Maiden, but Sponge Bob didn't make an appearance.)

[Wippit]

Also, the metric ton of research has already started. I do plan to go slowly; I'd imagine I wouldn't call the thing "finished" (if such a term can be truly applied to an aquarium) for two or three years.

[Gonzobob]

One of the biggies for me was looking at ongoing cost. When I got my 120 I would have been willing to go the upfront tank and equipment costs but especially in 'these uncertain times' it seemed like a good idea to keep any ongoing costs moderate. The electric bill on a 200+ tank is substantually higher than for a 100 range tank. ReefCentral has an electric cost calculator which I have found quite helpful.

[+mcallahan]

I think before you look at the tank, you should consider what your goal is of the tank, how committed you are willing to be, and what your budget is. The answers to those questions can help guide you to a tank decision.

[pbnj]

If you're anything like the average reefer, you'll wish you went bigger after you've set-up a smaller tank. If you upgrade later on, it will cost you much more than doing it now. That said, only you can justify your expenditures and if it's feasible.

I started with a 75g a little over a year ago and now I'm setting up a 240g. It would have been a lot cheaper to go big right off the bat, but I did learn a lot with the 75g that I can now apply to the 240g.

As for pipe rust, even if your pipes are not PVC, any saltwater gets washed away by all the other regular water that goes down the drain normally, so I can't see it happening. On my new 240g set-up, my old saltwater will go down the washing machine drain.

Just don't make a decision based on fear or inexperience. I remember I originally didn't want to use a sump because I was so fearful of what it would take to do it right. Looking back now, it was really ridiculous and unnecessary to feel that way. There so much suppport on this forum to help you with any problem, ranging from novice to expert.

[Wippit]

ReefCentral does indeed have a very nifty cost calculator, but I dont yet know any of the values to plug into it.

I'm guessing that I can locate something similar that will help me estimate the number, size, and maybe even wattage of the equipment needed. Searching...

[Reybeast]

plan out (physically) how you will actually do your water changes. Lugging 5 gallon jugs gets old, (~8lbs each gallon) and carrying 2 at a time is really heavy. Plan the whole thing out as well as you can, then get others to review your plans. Money is tight these days, but I have learned not to skimp on lighting and flow. That said, it doesnt mean you should blow your wallet either.

[Wippit]

Planning it out was exactly what prompted me to make the original post. I was thinking about how to get rid of the water and thought, "Man, 20% is 40+ gallons, or 9 five gallon jugs, to lug around the house each month--at a minimum."

I even thought of knocking a hole in the exterior wall, but then remembered it's *salt* water I'd be dumping into the yard. I may not mind piping it to our cantankerous neighbor's yard, but we share the same grass.

I suppose one could use a pump and a garden hose to transport water to the sink/bathtub. Has anyone tried that?

WTB a voodoo charm I can use to get my wife to do the water changes. Paying top dollar!

Edited December 16, 2009 by roberts0909

[Reybeast]

running the hoses is the Dave Petit method , ping him and he will enlighten you. I think he finally put together an ATO system, but hoses was what he used for a while. I carry (3) 5 gallon jugs to the curb and (3) more to the tank to add back in every two weeks.

[AlexKilpatrick]

I don't think the electricity on a tank is really all that significant in the big picture. I have a 156, and it has a measured energy consumption of 10 amps when everything is on. If I left everything on 24/7 (which I don't, of course), that would be about $2/day in electricity, or about $60 a month. In reality, it is closer to half that because I have a 10 hour light period -- call is $30/month. The bulk of that is MH (I have 2x 250 HQI), and a 215 would not be double that. But even if it was, that would be $60/month.

Not trivial by any means, but if $60 a month scares you away then you definitely should not be considering a large tank.

There are lots of expenses to running a reef tank, but I think people over-rate the significance of electricity.

[GKarshens]

I would agree with the previous post. I have calculated that my tank costs between $20-30 a month in electricity. I have a 125 with 250w MH lights. If $30 a month scares you, you are in the wrong hobby! I always tell people go as big as you can. That means in space, cost, and effort. The bigger the tank the more stable it will be. I use the Brute 32 gallon trash cans on wheels for water changes. Fill one with new saltwater. Syphon or pump out old tank water into the empty one and dump down the driveway. Then pump new saltwater back into the tank. Takes me about 30 mins to do a 30 gallon water change. We are moving soon and I am planning on doing a custom built 240 in the wall there. I don't think I am going to have to buy much in the way of equipment from what I currently have. I am just going to upgrade to luminarc reflectors to get a better light spread. Like you seem to be doing, and others have advised, do as much research as possible. It is much cheaper to do it right the first time! I would try to go and see a few of the larger systems setup by members here if you can. It will help you get a better grasp on how it is done.

[reefman]

Gabriel gives good advice. From a time standpoint, I don't think I spend anymore time on my 200 than I did on the 90 I started with (except the water changes take a little longer because they are larger). From a cost point, I wish my electricity costs were the most significant part of running the tank. For me, it hasn't proven out that way, but it could also be argued that will be guided by an individual's philosophy. I rationalize it as, if I wasn't spending the money on the tank (which the whole family enjoys), I would probably be spending it on some other type of "toy" (be that a car, another hobby - like golf, etc.). ...and even if you get the 215 and fall in love with the hobby, you'll probably decide in a few years you wish you had something bigger - I know I do

Besides, as you said, you are looking long term (a couple of years), and it will also depend as Mark said, what your goals turn out to be. An SPS dominant tank takes a lot more "stuff" to run than a mixed reef or one with LPS and softies. A lot of those costs (both for maintenance and equipment) can be added gradually.

Stephen

Edited December 16, 2009 by reefman

[+mcallahan]

I've got to push back on this one. If people say that the time spent on a bigger tank isn't that much more than a "smaller" tank, then why do so many guys sell their large systems and downsize to more manageable systems? I asked them and they all said the time/effort to keep a large system rolling...it just wasn't worth it to them anymore.

[GKarshens]

I think that is mainly for the guys doing the SPS dominated tanks that are always trying to get the newest, hottest corals. That gets tiring. I know that I broke down my Nano and stuck with my 125 because the Nano was too much work.

[reefman]

At different points I had a 90, then two 90's, and at one time 2 90's and a 135 all going at once. The time I spent on 2 90's, much less when I had all three going, was much more than I have spent on the single 200. Whether its a 40 or 300, you still have a set number of things you have to do to maintain it. Yes, I guess its takes longer to clean the glass on the larger tank, but youo still have to feed it, if you do supplements, etc., you are still spending about the same amount of time doing those things regardless of size. YOu just have larger doesages, a little longer water changes, a little longer cleaning the glass. But it take about the same amount of time to clean a skimmer cup for a 300 as it does for a 40. In fact, (although we all know you should clean them everyday), with the larger one you might not have to clean it as often.

Stephen

[Wippit]

You guys rock! Much good advice, and answered my questions well.

Hope you don't get tired of all my silly questions 'cause I have a lot more

[GKarshens]

You guys rock! Much good advice, and answered my questions well.

Hope you don't get tired of all my silly questions 'cause I have a lot more

Bring it!

[wayneb]

Keep asking, they're helping me too.

wayneb

[Wippit]

I didn't find "ATO" in my list of acronyms and abbreviations. What does ATO stand for?

[reefman]

Automatic Top Off (for fresh water to replace what has evaporated out of the tank).

Stephen

[AlexKilpatrick]

Automated (or Automatic) Top-Off

Basically as float switch and a controller to automatically add RO water to replace evaporation.

[Wryknow]

Well, as someone who has been there and done that here's my take on the whole big tank versus small tank question. How difficult is it? It really depends on two things

1) What are you wanting to do with it? Fish only with live rock (FOWLR) is a lot easier than a mixed reef tank. A mixed reef can vary a lot depending on how difficult your species are and how diligent you are in your responsibilities. A mixed reef with SPS, anemones, clams, etc is the most difficult because you have a lot of requirements for water quality, light, flow, and supplementation.

2) How much automation ar you able/willing to invest in?

Water top off and changes was really the biggest issue with a large tank. An RO/DI unit (about $120 from Buckeye Field Supply) and an auto top off of some sort are minimum requirements but there are a lot of options beyond that. I was just using a 44 gallon BRUTE trashcan as a resevoir and then filling it up as needed (about every 2.5 weeks.) For water changes I had another BRUTE container on a wheeled dolly that I would fill with 35 gallond of RO/DI and mix salt in and then wheel over to the tank. With a Python to drain the tank the whole water change only took about 10 minutes, but it did take 1/2 a day to fill up the RO/DI.

In retrospect, I should have gone ahead and hard plumbed the RO/DI unit into a sink water line and drain and rigged it to auto-fill the resevoir with a float switch/solenoid auto-top off. This would have simplified things a great deal.

For supplementation I have a PM 620 kalk reactor that I ran the top off water through. This was fine as long as the corals weren't too big but after a couple of years as they grew I needed more and more supplementation. I ended up using the 2 part souliton from RC and found that that wasn't too bad to supplement with. I would add 1/2 a cup of each mix every couple of days and that was working about right for me but that was another daily maintenance activity that I had to keep up with and I had to mix more 2 part every month or so.

If I was going to try another large tank with heavy coral I would probably invest in a calcium reactor.

Glass cleaning is the other daily chore that you need to keep up with. It only takes 5 - 10 minutes, but if you let it go for too long you will start to get coraline algae growth with is harder to remove. When my son was born and I had a full time job, school, and a baby I fell behind on this.

Just do it! Don't skimp on the magnet and change your magnet pads regularly so that they are able to remove stuff easily.

My wife and I seriously debated keeping this tank and just changing the inhabitants and upgrading the automation. If I went with a FOWLER tank and made the upgrades to the RO/DI it would probably have been LESS work that the 34 gallon tank that I got to do a mixed reef in. At the end of the day my wife wanted the floor space back and I really wanted to keep my RBTA and clown fish so that's what really decided things.

[+Hydro]

Keep in mind the extra cost of LR for a larger tank, that is pretty significant. 200 lbs of LR (min for a tank that size) from the LFS could be $1000, the bigger the tank the more LR you need of course. There is also more sand necessary and the need for a larger sump and more powerheads. Bigger tank means more lighting, more heat, and possibly a chiller. These are the disadvantages that I see with a larger system, if you have the money go for it.

Oh ya...the bigger your tank the smaller your corals look