reefman Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I'm continuing to have Nitrate problems with my corner tank. I did WQ test tonight, and Nitrates were either 80 or 100ppm. Here are the other tests: Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Kh 12 Ph (after I put buffer in) 8.24 Weird things: I'm never seeing any spike in Nitrites, and not in Ammonia since I had something die in the tank a while back (a month or two ago). Other weird things: My wave tank (the other tank) is: Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0 Nitrates 0 Kh 15 Ph 8.24 Both tanks are 90/92 gals. Both have a relatively equal # of fish. I feed both tanks exactly the same amounts of food. The corner tank (w/ the high Nitrates) has about 35 - 40 pieces of coral. The wave tank has around 20 - 25 pieces. The corner tank has a sump and Tunze skimmer. The wave tank does not (no sump, Prizm skimmer). The only other major differences I can think of is I have clams, Zoo's, and Xenia in the wave tank (0 Nitrate), whereas I have mainly more "higher end" corals in the corner tank (80 - 100 ppm Nitrate). I did about 20 - 30% water change on the corner tank about a week and a half ago. Any ideas to 1) what is causing the high Nitrates? 2) when I should really really start worrying (like maybe now?) about the Nitrate level, and 3) ideas to reduce the Nitrates would be greatly appreciated. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 Somebody has to have some ideas on this. I saw 11 people have viewed it. I would really appreciate comments and ideas. If nothing else, what my danger level on the Nitrate ppm is. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austinvines Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Any ideas to 1) what is causing the high Nitrates? 2) when I should really really start worrying (like maybe now?) about the Nitrate level, and 3) ideas to reduce the Nitrates would be greatly appreciated.Stephen I have no idea what could be causing your high nitrates in one tank but not the other, but I would be worried for my corals at that level. I would reduce feeding that tank and keep doing WCs daily until they start to diminish. You may have hit some kind of tipping point in the corner tank that shot the nitrates up much faster than the wave. What brand of test kit did you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejaustin Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I hardly ever know enough to add anything useful. I've heard that high nitrate levels are bad, although I've never actually seen anything talking about studies that support that statement. As far as nitrate reduction goes, what I've heard recommended most often are 1. water changes 2. growing macroalgae in the sump 3. using an external deep sand bed (there's a thread on this on Reef Central, but if you want more info, I'll tell you what I can remember) Of course, everyone agrees that it's important to try to identify what the source of the nitrates are. The most common things I've heard accused of causing high nitrates are 1. overfeeding 2. bioballs (or their equivalent) in trickle filters Have you taken a water sample to an LFS for testing to validate what you're seeing? ej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma13 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 A couple of important factors I did not see listed in your comparison of the tanks: How much live rock is in each? What is the sand bed setup? What types of fish (even with equal numbers some fish produce more waste then others)? I think any nitrates over 25ppm is probably getting dangerous in a reef tank with stony corals. I would add some chaeto in your sump (yes, I still have some for you), skim very aggressively, and change about 50% of your water every other day for a week and then see where you are with the nitrates. I might have some more comments and suggestions depending on your answers to the above questions. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted October 26, 2006 Author Share Posted October 26, 2006 Thanks for the input Enigma13, ejaustin, and Austinvines. To answer some of the questions, in the tank I'm having the problem with, I have two dwarf angels, a sailfin tang, a small neon goby, a watchman Goby, cleaner wassre, exquiste wrasse, pink wrasse and a Starry night Blenny. The corner tank has about 200 lbs of live rock, the wave tank has about 110 - 120 pounds. Both tanks have a 2 inch live sand bed. I talked to Carlos today, and his suggestion was water changes as well. He also suggested, and one of you posted, that some people are trading out the bio balls in their sumps for live rock. I went by his place tonight and picked up about 15 lbs to do that with, however the water change took me so long the live rock will have to wait until tomorrow. Although I changed out about a third of the "space" of water tonight, I think it was probably closer to about 50% RO/DI water with Tropic Marin salt mix) of volume due to the displacement of the rock and coral. I'll check the Nitrates again tomorrow, and plan on another WC Friday. Again on Sunday if I need to. Again, thanks for the ideas and help. Its always good when what you are doing has consensus instead of working it in a void. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma13 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Sounds like you have a plan. Be careful to remove the bioballs in a gradual manner and not all at once. The removal of that so much beneficial bacteria at one time could cause an ammonia spike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted October 26, 2006 Author Share Posted October 26, 2006 hmmm...Is this different bacteria that's in the tank and the sand bed? What would be considered gradual? ...and can I pull them all out, say put in a bag, put what LR and going to do, and then put the bio balls back; or will a few minutes exposure to the air kill them? Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammondegge Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 the short time out of water should not harm the bacteria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted October 26, 2006 Author Share Posted October 26, 2006 Missed one of the questions. I'm using AquariumPharmacuticals for the test. I haven't taken it to an LFS, simply because the I was getting 0 readings for Nitrates on the wave tank using the same test kit. I just got through doing another test on it, after about a 40 - 50% water change last night. Nitrates 40 - 80 ppm. Since I couldn't tell night before last whether they were reading 80, or 100, or beyond, I guess I should feel better, but I don't. I'll do another WC tomorrow night. Could someone give me an idea of how I should go about changing the bio balls with LR. Like how much would be safe to remove at one time. I also remember that bacteria doubles its volume every 36 hours, so I assume I should wait at least 36 hours between cycles of removing the bio balls and replacing with LR? Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhayden Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Man..... that still sounds awfully wacky. I never see anything over 20. I am not sure how good a 50% water change is for a system either IMO. I think you would be better with a couple days of 20-25%. Have you tested your RO water? maybe you got a bad cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted October 27, 2006 Author Share Posted October 27, 2006 Nope, did that tonight. RO/DI TDS meter reads 6 ppm (which is 2 points lower than when I started using it), and Nitrates on the RO/DI is Zero. I'm thinking more and more its something in the sump. Either the bio balls, filtering material, or something. With a 92G tank and 200 lbs of LR, it ought to be filtering this stuff out. Especially since the other tank is 90G and I feed them exactly the same. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma13 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 I would remove the bioballs in thirds. Take out one third, wait about a week and half of what is left, and then in another week remove the rest. In answer to a question further up, I think you will get differing opinions regarding large water changes, but 50% is definitely within almost anybodies safe range. Anthony Calfo recommends weekly 70-90% water changes under the mantra that if you are doing water changes to export nutrients why not take out as much as possible. I don't think that is for everybody, but Calfo is definitely a trustworthy source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted October 27, 2006 Author Share Posted October 27, 2006 I'm assuming that by replacing the bio balls with LR, I will be trading one substrate that only breaks down ammonia and Nitrites for one that will break down those two plus Nitrates? Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 One thing for you to consider Stephen... The corner tank was not setup as "your" tank and was run by someone else for an extended period. You have no idea what shape he kept the tank in, how much he fed, if he did water changes, etc. The sand bed might be a major contributor to your problem. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 I would remove the bioballs in thirds. Take out one third, wait about a week and half of what is left, and then in another week remove the rest. I agree with Enigma13 on this. Remove about a third at a time is a great idea. Don't forget that as you are adding LR to the sump, you are going to get some die-off from that (it always happens), and you are going to be stirring up a little more detritus with the removal of the Bioballs, just skim heavy. I think the bioballs are great for a FO or FOWLR and sand-bed, but they cause too many problems for a reef tank. And keeping them out of the water will be fine since most are used in trickle filter type sumps anyway. Good luck. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted October 28, 2006 Author Share Posted October 28, 2006 Interesting John. Hadn't thought about it in those terms. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted October 28, 2006 Author Share Posted October 28, 2006 John, If I've eliminated everything else (and I did find some stuff in the sump last night that was suspect, due to my own ignorance), and the WC's don't work, LR doesn't work, etc., etc....how would I go about changing the sand bed without causing spikes and killing everything off? Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 That my friend is tricky. First off, would be to take everything out the tank you want to save (liverock, fish, snails, etc.). Then drain as much water as you can (CLEAN water) to use when the tank is set back up. Then you would shopvac out all the old sand, then replace with new. I would use only bagged live sand for this as it should work the best. I'd put down something very thin (1-2in range). When you fill it back up with water, it sometimes helps to cover the new sand in a layer of saran wrap (which is removed after the water is poured in) to help with the sand cloud. Other than that, test for ammonia spikes but you should be fine. The key to this is not releasing the sulfur, and other poisons found in the anoxic layers of our sandbeds. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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