Shawn's 29g Starter Tank - Mentor Program

[FarmerTy]

LEDS and softies... you trying to make me look bad Shawn? Lol.

Looks like people are already chiming in on your public thread. My first guess was LEDs as well... potentially a spotlighting effect. I will say that star polyps aren't given as much credit as they are due for stinging their neighbors. They play nasty sometimes... but I don't think they have anything to do with it.

For your snails dying, I would definitely assume it's a nutrient issue. You've added quite the bioload since the frag swap and I wonder if that is starting to take its toll. Even when the coral dies, that will also affect your nutrients. If you left everything that died in the tank, that could have drastically increased your nutrients as well.

Good thing that nothing beats an old fashioned water change... it cures all ills.

I would work on getting better test kits as well for phosphate and nitrate as it appears that those parameters are what you'll mostly be fighting as we aim to stabilize your tank. If any snail is dead, aim to remove it quickly.

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[FarmerTy]

Be happy to test for nitrates and phosphates for you until you get some good kits in. I prefer the Hanna checker for phosphate (order the phosphorus version) and the Red Sea kit for nitrate.

There may also be a fellow reefer that lives close to downtown or in south austin that could test your water too.

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[ShawnKoto]

Ty, you will never believe it....

I was just watching my tank for the last hour... just pondering what the problem could be... I do that a lot.

Anyway, my conch was walking around the tank minding its own business and my peppermint shrimp came over and attacked my conch! So he flipped over like usual. As soon as he did the peppermint shrimp mounted him and started picking at him. it was nuts. this whole time I thought it was the hermits... but no. It was those ******* peppermint shrimp killing all of my snails and conches. Incredible... they get fed plenty...

What the hell... Have you ever seen devious, murderous peppermint shrimp like this?

[FarmerTy]

Oh, guess I never mentioned my other great hate in the reefing world are shrimps. Somehow a cleaner shrimp ended up in my tank but otherwise, I despise them as a whole!

I've heard of them tearing at LPS but never attacking a snail outright!

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[ShawnKoto]

All of them!? I feel like my skunk shrimp is fine.

[FarmerTy]

Actually, my skunk shrimp is a model citizen too... but I still hate him. :-)

[ShawnKoto]

Haha!

But why, Ty? At some point this weekend please rant to tell me your hatred of shrimp.

BTW the shrimp are caught and done for... back to Hunter like all the rest. Luckily for me I always spend more than I bring back every time I go.

[FarmerTy]

That one is not so much based on bad experiences or any legitimate reason so I wouldn't put too much weight into any rant I have about shrimps.

[ShawnKoto]

Woke up and did water parameters:

KH: 10.5

Ca: 470

Mg: 1300

Daily PH: 7.81 – 7.92

Phosphate: ~0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 5 – 10 ppm

Temp: 80 - 81

All of them are crappy API except KH, Ca, Mg. Nitrates I am super leery of because it is a guesstimate from using a test strip and an API drip test, but with freshwater color range card.

[FarmerTy]

That's interesting that your alk has increased with water changes. I'm not sure how aggressive you have been with them to lower your nitrates, but maybe your salt brand is to blame? Are you using one of the fancy brands of salt? Like Red Sea Coral Pro or something else with elevated Ca and Alk levels for their salt mix?

I would not even bother testing phosphate and nitrate anymore with those API test kits. The results are rubbish to me, at least the levels they are reading with your kits. Maybe they are expired kits? I think they were reading those low levels prior to when I tested your water for you the first time. I would work on getting better tests like the Red Sea nitrate test kit or the Hanna Phosphorus meter to truly know if you are making an impact on nutrient levels in your tank. Be happy to test them for you again if you have a moment to swing by with some water.

Has turning down the lights according to Reburn's example improved anything in your tank? Is the leather looking better?

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[ShawnKoto]

Yeah, I'm not sure. The water changes are always with AquaDome water. I buy 10g a week and change out 4-5g from the cube. I am pretty sure that I did the test right for the KH but I can try again. I think that I should probably bring my PH up as well, but with my Alk that high I probably shouldn't dose it right?

[ShawnKoto]

Okay... Sorry Ty you were right. I retested KH three times to make sure that I was correct and it actually came out to 9.1 to 9.3. Sorry about that.

[ShawnKoto]

I just did a ton of research looking at how to control my nutrient problem. I don't feel like I am over feeding as almost all the food is gone in 2-5 minutes. However, I think that I am doing a couple things wrong:

1. My refuge is not getting enough light and it is not very good:) I need to scrape the back off like you suggested and get a nice LED light for it. Or get a submersible light.

2. I am not rinsing my frozen food. I have watched some videos today where people are straining all their food through a fine mesh strainer. I need to get one of those and strain it. Seems like there is a lot of waste that comes out of the water that could lead to nitrates when compounded twice daily.

3. I don't have a protein skimmer. Most forums say that I may not need one on a tank of this size, but a little more never hurt. Right?

4. I am not dosing anything currently. I put some Phosban (GFO) in a little mesh bag and put it in my media basket and I think that is definitely doing something for the phosphates, but I see a lot of people dosing Vodka to get rid of the rest of unwanted Nitrates. I prefer to drink my Vodka and not pour it into my tank, however I do always have it on hand.

So, I think maybe I could explore all of these options. Thoughts?

[FarmerTy]

Just wanted to check on the salt as a source of your continually increasing alk but it seems like the mystery is solved. In the effort to help anyone that may be reading along, what was the error with your original alk reading? Where you not reading to the bottom of the rubber plunger? Or perhaps read the color change too quick on the titration and didn't let it fully change color?

For your nutrient problem, it could be perhaps too high of a bioload for your current nutrient processing methods to handle... and may not be able to be further influenced by feeding or lack thereof. If that is the case, you have two roads you can go down, either increase your efficiency of nutrient processing or decrease your bioload/feedings.

Since most would prefer to increase the efficiency of nutrient processing instead of letting go of precious livestock, let's focus on your nutrient processing methods. Currently, your liverock, sand, refugium, purigen, water changes, and GFO remove nutrients from your system.

Though we haven't been able to verify yet, I would imagine your GFO is making short work of your phosphate issue. It would be ideal to get a good test kit for phosphates so you can track your progress on lowering the levels in your tank. Even once you remove all the unbound phosphates in your water column, some will continue to leach out from your rock and sand so knowing what your levels are would be a great benefit to knowing where you are in your phosphate removing goals. But before we even get too deep into removing phosphates, let's focus on nitrates first.

For nitrates, there are many ways to go with it. Yes, increasing the efficiency of your refugium would be very helpful. If you cut out the vinyl adhesive in the back and expose the whole 2nd chamber of your rear sump, you can almost triple/quadruple your efficiency of your uptake of nutrients via macro algae. Just get a good enough light that will light up the whole 2nd chamber from bottom to the top of the water line. A well placed, yellow LED bulb would probably do the trick. RichardL and I were looking into this one for his refugium. Maybe he will chime in on your public thread on his success with it.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_179879-75774-LPAR30L5KLEDG5_0__?productId=50109648&Ntt=utilitech+15+watt&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dutilitech%2B15%2Bwatt&facetInfo=

Protein skimmers are nice and definitely help the battle with nutrients but when I had a nano-type system before, I didn't run a skimmer and I was fine. I did do water changes religiously and kept a very low bioload... I only had 2 fishes in my 12-gallon nanocube. If you can find one that fits in your system and works well, I say go for it. It will only help the cause.

For rinsing frozen foods, see my rant from a couple months ago:

Just a quick note on why I don't bother rinsing my frozen food. Randy Farley-Holmes, a reefing guru chemistry buff, has quantified the phosphate addition of the rinse water of frozen foods and calculated it at roughly 1% of the phosphate content of the food itself. So basically, rinsing the frozen food gets rid of 1% of the phosphate addition of your frozen food. To give scale, that 1% of phosphate added from the rinsed water to 100 gallons of water would bump the concentration of the tank up roughly 0.0003 ppm.

Quoted from Randy:
"That amount washed away does not seem significant with respect to the "in tank" target level of about 50-100 times that level (say, 0.015 to 0.03 ppm), nor does it seem significant relative to the total amount of phosphate actually added each day in foods (which is perhaps 50-1000 times as much..."

Here's the article he wrote for reef keeping magazine, for those that like to read the nerdy stuff.

http://www.advanceda...012/3/chemistry

So, I don't bother with rinsing the frozen food. I'd actually try to feed pellets more if possible, more nutrient dense, and doesn't foul water quality as easily, depending on the brand you use. I'm a big fan of New Life Spectrum foods.

I'm a huge proponent of solid carbon dosing (biopellets) for nitrates but in your tank, I don't think that is quite applicable. It would require a reactor and a great skimmer. Even with vodka dosing, the critical element in any form of carbon dosing is a great skimmer. You are in essence trying to encourage bacterial growth to uptake nitrates and even a little phosphate by supplying what they are lacking, carbon. Once the bacteria grows, you use a really good skimmer to remove them out of the system, thereby, exporting nitrate and some phosphate in the process. If you don't have a great skimmer, the bacteria will uptake the nitrates and phosphates, but upon them dying, will just release it back into your system if not exported by a skimmer or other means. Unless you are planning to get a good skimmer, I would just stick with water changes as your main form of nitrate removal and aim to ramp up your refugium to aid in the process. Again, a good, accurate test kit would help a lot in gauging your progress. What I'd like to determine is if your nitrate levels are continually going up? Or is the high concentration of nitrate just a remnant from your cycling of the tank when you first started it.

[FarmerTy]

Oh, forgot to discuss your pH. I would NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER aim to adjust pH levels in a saltwater tank. Please don't ever use buffer to increase or decrease it. It just further complicates the goal of trying to get all your other parameters in line, such as alk, Ca, and Mg.

The only reason I can even see anybody ever worried about their pH is if it is really low while using a CaRX (talking <7.7 pH) or super high from using kalkwasser (>8.6 pH) or from dosing alk, kalkwasser and alk being temporary conditions. Even then, the only method I would employ is manipulation of CO2 levels in your water.

Don't worry about aiming for a target level for pH, the corals don't really care and neither do your fish. You'll do more damage in the process for something that doesn't really matter if within normal levels.

[ShawnKoto]

Hey Ty:

I posted about the light acclimation process in my normal tank build section:

"This is not initiative Heh. I know you described the different between the PAR and the visual light that I see, but it looks so dim comparatively to what it was.

The reason it is hard to navigate is because anytime I go to look at a coral or clam or something people are always like, "Are you sure there is enough light in there... These things need intense light." But then the light acclimation process starts so low. Think about it, I am 10% right now and for the next 3 weeks. Then we are talking about ramping up 2% a week. That means in 6 months I will be at around 55%--half a year to acclimate to around 50% seems like a long time. I know that everyone preaches patience in this hobby, but yikes. "

What are your thoughts on light acclimation? I know you are not an LED expert, but just in general. It seems like when I see people set up new tanks the lighting is not at 5-10%. They look nice and bright and the corals would probably need to acclimate to those as well. Also, what about corals that do not need the acclimation process like this and are ready for the light, or need the light earlier? Are those corals getting the short end of the stick? Also, what about moving the corals around to acclimate them a bit instead of having the tank dim?

I am interested in your thoughts as always! Thanks!

[FarmerTy]

Hi Shawn,

I read your light post on your regular thread and I must agree with Reburn. Though I am unfamilar with LED lights, I know that slow changes are always best. Your PC lights are grossly underpowered compared to LEDs, MHs, and T5s so transitioning from them to any other lighting technology is something to be done with deliberate and slow actions.

Reburn hit the nail on the head on the idea of not trying to attain max power on the LEDs. For your depth and the type of corals you are keeping, there is no reason ever I think you should ever be at max power. My brother never ran his above 50% on his 28-gal nanocube, and that was 5 years ago so I'm sure LEDs are even more powerful these days. I think that was the "aha" moment for you when he mentioned that.

You're the only one able to observe your coral directly, so just take your time with the ramp up and use the guideline as a baseline... if you ramp quicker and you see no bleaching or upset corals, then continue slowly ramping. If there is a negative reaction from any coral, then ramp down a little bit and give it time to acclimate, or put it in a more shaded area and continue ramping. There's not true formula but you'll end up ticking less things off if you go slow.

[ShawnKoto]

Yeah, the amount of mistakes that I would have made without this community would have made me quit this hobby--i'm sure of it. I really appreciate all the help and patience.

[FarmerTy]

So what's this big update you've been hinting about Shawn? Are you getting a giant tank and stuffing it with SPS coral? :-p

[ShawnKoto]

That will be the day! If I can't keep my shrimp from murdering my conches, I hardly think that I am ready for an upgrade. That said, as soon as I am, you will be the first to know about it.

I have been posting less because I have been out of town for most of the last two weeks for work--I am typing this from a hotel in Boston. However, I am working on my tank almost always when I am home. Updates are as follows:

- I scraped all the vinyl off the back of my tank in order to really try and grow out my cheato. This is an attempt to help with my nutrient issue. So, I scrapped it all off and installed a 75w / 6500k CFL with a reflector to give it 12 hours of daily light. It is pretty bright, but from what I read this was one that works best for growing cheato. On a side note, I was amazed at how much $#!% was on the bottom of the refuge--detritus city (or it might have been mostly sand ) Either way, I wish I knew a good way to vacuum that stuff up as my siphon really doesn't pick it up. Anyway, I hope that it will start growing nicely and assist in my nutrient issue. I would like to get into a situation where I can feed heavy and not have to worry about it. If this doesn't work, then I will be getting a skimmer next

- Next thing that I did was put my three fish from my 10g hospital tank back into my main tank. I ran 4 weeks of copper and they have been looking pretty good. Ich fell off on day 3 and there has never been a sign of it since. So now I have 5 fish in my cube: 2 clown fish, a pencil wrasse, a yasha goby, and a neon goby. All are pretty small and I don't see myself getting any more fish. To be perfectly honest, I know this is going to sound weird, but I think that the fish are my 3rd favorite part of keeping a reef tank. I think my favorite are the corals, next my inverts (love watching my blue porcelain crab, for instance), then my fish. Is that strange that fish are third on the list?

- I have been working a lot on flow as well. I added another cheap hydor to my tank in order to provide counter flow. I have it turn on every 15 minutes for 4 minutes and reverse the current that is in the tank. I am not sure if i have it dialed in, but it will do before I get another RW4.

Not a big update I suppose, but not bad for only be home a couple days.

[FarmerTy]

Well sorry for all the traveling you're doing. Do you have an old phone sitting around? Maybe it's time for a webcam!

That's good you got the vinyl cut on the back and improved your refugium setup. Hopefully it will pay dividends for you down the line with your nutrient export. If you can, I'd even bump the lighting period for the macro to 16 hrs.

For the detritus, you could just get a large diameter hose and start a siphon to suck it all out of there.

To be honest, the fish are my least favorite too. Obviously I'm in it for the corals and the fish serve a purpose for added motion in the tank and for cleanup crew purposes, but I've lately been mesmerized by my urchins (4-5 tuxedo urchins) daily activities and my emerald crabs. Even the conchs are wildly entertaining so I understand how you feel.

[ShawnKoto]

Yeah, I had my webcam setup a month ago remember? But for some reason it will stay on for like 4 days and then stops working. I just got back from Boston and have been traveling a lot lately. My girlfriend feeds the fish, which I am thankful for, but other than that I am just trying to let it develop--let the environment mature. Honestly, I am not sure what that looks like, like how do you know when a tank has matured? There is something to it though, because it is when there is a certain balance comes into the system. My freshwater system is like that now. I do a biweekly water change and the parameters stay perfect. Nothing like the legendary Ty tank that needs no water change do to the mad science behind your parameters and dosing.

I don't know if I ever shared the newest addition to my tank. I got rid of all the hermit crabs and now have this guy:

Also, something to note is that the Hyacinth birds nest frag that Sam gave to me at the swap is coloring up and looking more filled out with polyps. Also, there is some nice growth for a 2-3 weeks.

Also, here are some others that are back in the tank who are looking good.

[FarmerTy]

Yeah, I remember your webcam you had setup. Hope it's been helping a bit while you are traveling more.

You know when your tank is mature, is when it pays it's bills on time. Bwahaha, I crack myself up! But really, my tank does pay for its own upkeep so I'll give it a thumbs up in the maturity department.

There's not a definitive line when the tank is mature but I typically go with any tank over 1 year that has been stable over most of that time.

Awesome! Halloween urchins will clear anything off the live rock... even a frag plug or two if you have rookie frag glueing skills.

The birdsnest is looking happy. I'd watch the base and see if you can see growth on the frag plug. It's sometimes hard to tell if the tips are growing as much but you can always tell when the base has growth for the most part.

[FarmerTy]

How's your phosphate levels in the tank? Nitrate?

[ShawnKoto]

I'm not sure about the phosphates. However, I gave myself a budget for this hobby and next month I am budgeted for a Hannah.

I do know that it looks like both of my toadstool leathers look like they are dying and I am not sure what that is all about

There is a question that I have been thinking about a lot over the last couple days and that is feeding. Right now I am feeding Frozen Mysis and Phytofeast. Everything in the tank loves mysis. I have heard of other things that help your corals though, like reef chili. Also, I remember coming to your house and seeing an entire fridge of frozen foods! So, I am not going to ask what exactly you feed because I am sure there are 30 different things, but if I was going to expand beyond Mysis and Phytofeast what would you suggest? What have you had good luck with?