Shawn's 29g Starter Tank - Mentor Program

[ShawnKoto]

Wow, that is some incredible information on temperature. You really are a wealth of information and I think that people aside from me will be very interested to read all this. Again if anyone has any comments about all this please comment in my tank build thread in my signature

I think your main philosophy here of not fighting with the tank as much as guiding it is very interesting and makes total sense to me. For instance, if the phosphate level is low without a need for a PhosBan reactor then don't just add it for the sake of adding it. If your tank wants to hover at 82, then why not let it? Just guide it to the temp you are looking for don't let it get too high or low. I find that same idea through a lot of the advice and I like it a lot.

Anyway, I don't have any more questions for now, but I will be back for more once my lighting gets here and I finish the refuge. Thanks, Ty.

[FarmerTy]

[ShawnKoto]

Hey Ty:

I have been doing a lot of research about Deep Sand Beds. There seems to be a ton of research saying that it can be a great filter and other that say the can keep become poisonous. From what I understand, Aerobic bacteria grows in the top 1-2 inches and breaks down waste just like live rock. Then in the bottom 3+ inces lives anaerobic bacteria that consumes nitrates and release hydrogen sulfide back into the sand. The gas can be harmful to the fish in huge numbers, but as long as you keep the colonies alive in the DSB then the critters will stir it and let the bubbles up and out of the aquarium. So, keepers of deep sand beds say that you can feed as much as you want and if you have an established DSB, then you will never see Nitrates. I know that you are a huge fan of getting rid of Nitrates so you don't have to do water changes!

Really interesting videos that this guy shows how to do it right. http://youtu.be/5YYDTXCQ2XA

SO, I have read what everyone else thinks.

However, my mentor, what do you think?

[FarmerTy]

Well, this one is a tough one. It's a very often debated topic and there's still no clear answer for which method is the best. First off, sometimes I feel like I don't state this enough, but I am definitely not the end all, be all as far as opinions or advice should go. I guess I don't really feel the need to say that with you Shawn because I think you have a pretty good understanding of that and you often like to do your own research either way before coming to me to bounce things off me, like you did here.

I'll give you my 2 cents on it, because that's what you pay me for.

I've run a deep sand bed before (generally accepted to be >4" deep) and I've run a shallow sand bed before (approx 2-3"). I generally prefer to run the shallow sand bed. Most actually consider that to be the worst of the options (no sandbed, shallow sandbed, deep sandbed). Oddly enough, I mainly run it because of aesthetics. Your research is correct, deep sandbeds (DSBs) have the ability to process both ammonia/nitrite via nitrification (ammonia/nitrite to nitrate) in the upper portion of the sandbed. The lower portion is typically anoxic (lacking oxygen) and is the perfect environment for denitrification (nitrate to nitrogen gas). Obviously that is an overly simplified version of it but it works for this discussion... plus, I'm doing this as best I can from memory so forgive any lapses.

DSBs do generally process ammonia/nitrite/nitrate very well. To me, it's like having that much more live rock in your system. The live rock functions in much the same way. Bacteria living on the outer layers of the live rock will perform nitrification and convert your ammonia from the breakdown of food/wastes to nitrite and in turn, nitrate. The inner core of the rock, where oxygen has a more difficult time penetrating to will have the perfect anoxic environment for denitrification, the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas. For me though, DSBs are not aesthetically pleasing. which is why I personally don't run them. I know... very shallow of me (pun-ny)! I also have had systems where I've employed some version of solid carbon dosing (vokda, biopellets, vinegar, etc) to assist with the removal of nitrates.

What is interesting and what I observed with the 215-gallon tank is that initially, I ran biopellets immediately. I however did take them offline in chasing what was killing my SPS. Since my system hadn't had the ability to adjust to the new bioload, my nitrates shot up to >50 ppm in less than 2 weeks. Fast forward to now and I currently don't run biopellets. My nitrates are currently being maintained below 5ppm without any form of carbon dosing. Now, I have to give some credit to the giant ball of chaeto I have in my sump, as well as my over-sized skimmer (rated for 550 gallons), but I honestly believe the main reason my nitrates haven't shot to the moon again is because my population of denitrifying bacteria increased within my new live rock and that has tipped the scale in my favor.

My theory is the new live rock I had added to the tank when I first upgraded did not have the population of denitrifying bacteria established yet (it was dry BRS pukani rock). That's why it was not helpful in removing nitrates when my tank was first setup. Fast forward to the present and a good colony of denitrifying bacteria has established itself in the inner core of my live rock. A point to note, the dry rocks I added are huge! 50lbs distributed in only 3 rocks... and that's dry weight. I feel like just the sheer mass of these rocks allows for a much higher ratio of denitrification areas in the inner core of the rock... being that one large rock has the ability to have more anoxic inner core rock than an equal weight of a bunch of smaller rocks. The ratio would be skewed higher for more surface area to inner core area on the smaller set of rocks than the one large piece of rock.

Now that I totally digressed away from the sandbed discussion, let me come full circle back to it. DSBs are nice for the fact that they will assist in not just nitrification, but denitrification to help remove nitrates from the system. Shallow sandbeds don't have that ability (or more so reduced) but at least aid in nitrification. The general theory is that eventually, there is a saturation point where the sandbed can no longer absorb nutrients out of the system and process it. This goes for both DSBs and shallow sandbeds, which some associate that with the dreaded old tank syndrome. Then the sandbed will start leaching back nutrients into the system. Whether I believe this theory... well let's just say the jury is still out. I haven't run a system past 3 years without upgrading my tank so I haven't ever gotten to a point where I could see any negative effects from long-term usage of a sandbed. Part of me feels like old tank syndrome is really just the apathy a tank owner has towards his tank from running it that long. You get more lackadaisical about water changes, maintenance, and your husbandry practices... my theory is that that's the real truth to old tank syndrome and why tanks go crashing down after 4-6 years.

I just keep running off on tangents, don't I? You can probably blame the benedryl I had to take tonight. I'll just summarize it up real quick before I start trailing off again.

Ideally, I don't think it matters what sandbed you run. DSBs are nice for the extra help with denitrication in the anoxic areas in the lower portions, but to me, aesthetics leave more to be desired. Shallow sandbeds are aesthetically pleasing to me, but they don't aid in denitrification as much as the DSBs. No sandbed doesn't obviously doesn't aid in either, but some SPS-dominant tanks like to run them to remove any potential effects of nutrients building within the sandbed from the accumulation of detritus/rotting food/wastes. That to me is a little too much work, trying to suck up any detritus that accumulates, or any grain of sand that happened to work itself out of the liverock... can be very tedious indeed. I think it was a fad during the hay-days of trying to make these totally nutrient deficient SPS tanks... in which you dose what you needed on a base platform of removing all nutrient sources. A kind of, suck it dry, then add back what we need mentality.

I'm sure that probably didn't clear up much, you probably have even more questions. Hopefully it was a good read and that you got at least something out of it.

[ShawnKoto]

Thanks so much for the response. See, this is why this mentor thing is so great. I spent 4-6 hours researching that yesterday, lurking around forums and reading journals, but at the end of the day I don't know any of these people. When I go on a forum I don't know if they have successful tanks, what their reek keeping philosophies are, what their setups are like, or even if they have a reef tank at all! To be fair you can tell the folks that seem to know what they are talking about, especially because a lot of them start controversial forum posts with "In the last 25 years of keeping over 40 reef tanks I believe....." But my point is that I got more from your post above than the research because I know how it all fits in with the way you run a successful tank because you explain through the situation in which you have experimented with it. It's great.

Anyway, I know I have been a pain in the butt over the last week, so I will not be asking any more questions until I stabilize my ich issue and get my lights in But thanks a ton for your insight--on the big upgrade I am pretty sure that I want to try a DSB.

[ShawnKoto]

Hey, Ty. Just thought I would let you know that Aquadome got back to me today and said my Alk was 11.9.

[ShawnKoto]

Hey Ty:

I having trouble controlling this ich outbreak in my tank. The real issue is that I'm not sure of the root cause so I can fix it. Maybe I went to fast with the fish addition. Maybe too much coral added. So far I have moved all the fish but my yasha goby and the pencil wrasse to the HT and they have all recovered very nicely. All that said I am thinking that as soon as I put them all back in the tank they will just get it again. How have you dealt with this sort of thing in the past?

[FarmerTy]

Hey Shawn,

This response may be a but shorter than normal since weekends tend to be my busier days.

First off, that's a pretty high alk level. Probably towards the max of what I'd ever keep a tank at. Any idea how it got that high? You source all your water from Aquadome? Or do you mix your own? If everything is happy in there I would just let it slowly go down with water changes. If you mix your own salt, try to stay away from any of the "professional brands" that have higher alk and Ca. I would take a real long time to acclimate any new additions to your tank. Most come from tanks at 7-9 dKh so too quick of a jump to 12 dKh would be detrimental, as you may have already witnessed.

For ich, I was gonna go into a rant about it but that'll have to be for another time. Big summary is I wouldn't spend the effort to have an Ich free tank. I would spend more effort making sure your tank parameters were as close to NSW as possible, reduce stress for the fish (too high bioload, fish picking on each other, etc), and feed the fish well.

It's interesting how well they recovered from the Ich in the copper QT tank. I would keep them in the QT for now and let's take a look at your water. How about bring over some water, a cup should suffice, when you pick up your stuff from the BRS order and we'll see where we are at. I feel like there is a parameter off somewhere that is causing the system-wide ich, perhaps even the high alk could be a factor. The only two times I had a system wide Ich attack was during the super high salinity debacle and the resulting super high nitrate followup.

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[ShawnKoto]

Thanks, Ty

I will bring a cup when I swing by. I am excited to see the tank. I'm not doing anything with the tank but working on water going forward--I need to get it balanced. I have to say I am glad that you told me to get the red see test kit, the API tests are all over the place. Although, that could be my water. Ha!

I hope you are getting people in some homes this weekend

[ShawnKoto]

It is like Christmas at my house!

I got both my Steve's LEDs retrofit and my RW-4 today. I know what I am doing the next several weeknights.

So, in general what am I trying to accomplish with the water movement? My main circulation pump puts out some pretty strong current. So, do I want to put my RW-4 so it is just pushing in the opposite direction and then mess with the timing? It will probably make a lot of weird currents, but I'm unsure that is what I am trying to do. I am going to do some researching when i am through putting together the LED kit.

Time to do some soldering.

[ShawnKoto]

I researched ideas on flow and like everything else there are a million different things to consider when trying to figure out what you want your flow to be like. In general, the main things to consider are the type of tank, corals, and fish that you have and the space you have to work with. Being that these factors are so specific to each reef, you mainly get a bunch of conflicting generalities like "Don't put too much flow over your corals because then they won't open up" and "Make sure to put a lot of flow over your corals because that is the only way that the remove any detritus." So, strong flow over them or not!? Who knows...

There are some basic things that people seem to agree on and that is you are looking for turbulence instead of a constant flow.

The problem as I see it is that I don't have as many options as I would like. In the 29 BioCube you have a return pump giving out quite a flow on the left side with limited ability to aim it. Then I have a RW-4 that I can do whatever I want with. The nice thing about the new RW series versus the mp series from Jeabo is that it has a much wider spread instead of a condensed flow. From what I am reading the best way to get turbulence is to point two powerheads at each other from across the tank--the issue is of course that I really only have the back of the tank to work with.

All that said, there was one guy in a forum that I think had a funny post that I will paraphrase to say... no one knows what they are talking about when it comes to flow except what has worked for them. The only way to do it is to play around with it until the stuff in your tank seems to be happy.

While that is an answer that seems to make sense, it leaves me pretty unfulfilled and directionless. You have anything on this mentor, Ty?

[FarmerTy]

Not to take the easy way out, but the guy's words on flow is true to a certain extent. You just have to get your powerheads in there and just start experimenting with flow. I equate it to aquascaping. Sure, there are some generalities that you can follow but until you get the rocks in there and start placing them about, you're not going to know what will work best.

We can at least address the flow in regards to your livestock choices. Seeing as how you mostly have softies and LPS, with a splash of SPS in there, I would aim to keep your SPS towards the upper part of your tank (they'll appreciate the higher light as well) and aim to have the zoas and LPS towards the lower end of the tank.

That way, you can also influence the flow to have more towards the top of the tank and less at the bottom.

Perhaps you can put the power head opposite of the return pump effluent and aim it towards the return flow. It'll create the chaotic environment you were aiming for and what most corals enjoy more, instead of the laminar flow.

Have you looked into options to rotate or deflect your return pump flow? I remember when I had my nanocube, I added a Hydor rotating deflector and it spun around and around, changing the output of the flow from the return pump. Maybe the combination of that and you randomizing the flow from the Jaebo will give you what you are looking for?

Let me know before you go live with the LEDs if you can. We can address light acclimation at that time since your corals will be coming from PC lighting to a full LED system. At least being able to dim the LEDs should make the transition much easier!

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[ShawnKoto]

Hey Ty:

Lights are installed. I still cant get them to 0% without cutting outlet power, but they are working great aside from that. I have the Blues and Whites on separate arrays. I have the blues at 25% and whites at 35% right now.

I think that you said that you had some advice on light acclimation?

[FarmerTy]

That's great news! How's the tank looking? I know LEDs are sometimes hard to photograph or at least capture the true essence in person.

Yeah, no direct advice but just to start it low, especially since you came from PC bulbs. Keep an eye on your corals and watch their reactions. If any look negative, just dial it back a bit.

Maybe some LED users will chime in on your public build thread but the general consensus I hear is that LEDs look a lot dimmer than an equally lit (par-wise) fixture of MH or T5 so even though it looks dimmer, you're actually pushing the same par. Some make the mistake of bumping it up visually to the same brightness, not realizing they are pushing more par and cooking their corals.

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[ShawnKoto]

By the beard of Zeus! I have made some progress this last weekend.

First of all, Ty, thank you very much for letting me come over and see the tank and ask you approximately 3000 questions. I will finally be able to get my water parameters in check.

I finally finished up my LED system, and the only thing that I did wrong was that I was supposed to run a jumper across the two grounds on the power supply (it never said that on anything on their directions, site, or internet. : ) Anyway, things are finally working nicely and I have it on the Apex. It starts out nice and soft in the morning and then starts dimming in the evening. My tank has never been happier.

I am trying to figure out when and how long to run the lights. Right now I am running them for too long apparently because I am getting a bunch of brown algae on the glass.

I understand how long lights need to be on in an aquarium 8 - 10 hours. The hard part is that now I have the ramp up and ramp down periods I am not sure where I should be. Do you ramp up and ramp down?

Also, I got an Jebao RW4 to go with the Apex and I went to town on the connection wire while watching football. Took me 4 hours and two trips to radio shack, but I am rocking.

I can control everything about the pump. However, I am still having problems getting the flow right. I ordered a deflector today for the return pump, but I am having a tough time with the RW4. I think that I will post it to my regular build thread and try to lure Victoly to tell me what he does for flow in his BC29.

[FarmerTy]

You were a busy reefer this weekend Shawn!

Glad you were able to wire up the Apex for the Jaebo RW pump and also figured out the issue with the dimming on the LEDs. Automation is fun, isn't it? At least when it's not being a little bugger and playing right.

For length of photo period, you'll get all sorts of answers for that if you surveyed just the small population on the club. For now, I heed caution to keep the photo period low while you deal with the higher nutrient levels, otherwise, you'll have an algae tank and not a reef tank anymore. Now that your lights are stronger, it means they will grow coral well... it also means they will grow algae well, too!

I agree, I think Victoly's pump profile settings will be much more applicable to your setup than mine, 1) because I am using the more direct flow Jaebo WP-series pumps and 2) tank size considerations make more sense as well. Hopefully he will chime in on your public thread. Usually if you say Apex 3x real fast, he'll appear!

If you get a chance Shawn, I'd post the results of your testing over the weekend with your new fancy test kits. It would be good to document and also let any who are following your build thread get a good idea of your levels and what you are starting with.

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[FarmerTy]

Shawn,

If it helps at all, here's a link to my old build thread where I discuss my programming of the Jaebo pumps using the Apex. It's about halfway down the page.

http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/25278-jeepertys-non-build-build-thread/page-4

I may have tweaked some numbers since then but that's the base programming I went off of to start with.

[ShawnKoto]

Thanks for the thread link, Ty. Wow, that tank was beautiful... I am sure this tank you currently have will best it once everything grows out, but that thing was incredible with all those colonies.

[FarmerTy]

I sure do miss my colonies... but I look at it as a second chance to see if I got lucky the first time! At least that's what I tell myself to not start sobbing like a little girl everytime I look at my tank.

Wait, this is YOUR build thread Shawn! Quit derailing it!

[ShawnKoto]

So, one thing that I did want to add to the thread as you suggested was my collected water parameters. I think the purchase of that Red Sea kit was an incredibly good investment. I honestly felt like a bit of a chemist with all the syringes and glass bottles...

So, my current parameters after testing were:

Salinity 1.026

Calcium 460

Magnesium: 1400

Alkalinity: 9.4

Nutrients .15ppm

Phosphates 16-32 ppm

I know that the nutrients and phosphates are higher. I have not been running GFO, so I will put Phosban in my media basket. Right now I am running filter floss, Purigen, and Chemipure, but I will stuff some phosban in there with it and see if that helps...

One other thing to note that may be a factor here... I found out that one of my conches had been killed when I got home from your house which might lead to some level changes... I hear that when things die it can cause some changes like that. Guess who was the culprit? And I am not sure about this... but I found a rogue hermit crab! He must have been hiding out in the depths of the live rock during my initial sweep when I got rid of the rest of the hermits in my tank. I saw the hermit playing around with the conch and then noticed that there was no conch! Shell was licked clean and the look on my shirmps' faces said it all. He may be getting framed here, but I think we all know that hermits can be murderous scum. I am pretty sure this particular hermit went crazy with the power he acquired from the removal of all the other hermits, which placed him nicely atop the tank pecking order. He must have immediately decided that his current shell was not good enough for a "big timer" such as himself. Then he promptly went on a little real estate tour of the tank that ended with my conch in the belly of a couple cleaner shrimp... make no mistake that hermit will rue this day... He will be in one of those small dark tanks at AquaDome by night's end where undoubtedly he will fall from his perch atop the pecking order to some Electric Blue's prison b!#%^.

[FarmerTy]

I'm guessing you're in the no hermit crab camp now?

Your foundation elements are looking pretty good. I think the regular water changes should keep those levels in the correct range.

For the phosphates, the phosban should do some damage with that. Be careful to not remove the phosphates too fast as that has some repercussions as well. I typically run with half the recommended dose at first and ramp up from there as needed.

For nitrates, I would keep an eye on it. It is higher than I feel comfortable for a tank to be at but besides denitrification (within anoxic areas in your tank... deep inside live rock... deep sand beds), your only other source of nitrate removal would be through the water changes. Nitrates removed are directly proportional to water removed... for instance, change 20% of your water and that'll reduce your nitrate concentration by 20%.

[ShawnKoto]

Firmly in the no hermit crab camp.

That is really good to know about the direct proportion of water removal to nitrate removal.

My refuge will take nitrites out as well, right?

Also, when something dies in a tank how will that affect parameters? I am seeing ammonia levels on the forums, but thought that was all directly linked to the Nitrogen cycle.

[ShawnKoto]

Also, now that I finally have my lighting in and some of my flow I can now focus on dialing in specific needs of my corals. I made a detailed spreadsheet of all my corals and their lighting, flow, temperament, common names, (family,genus,species), and notes. Here is the list though.

Coral List

1. FrogSpawn (Bi-Color) - LPS

2. Kenya Tree (Purple/Pink) - Soft

3. Birdsnest (ORA Hyacinth) - SPS

4. Monti (Purple (brown)) - SPS

5. Leptoseris (JF Jack-O-Lantern) - LPS

6. Blue-Green Enchinata (ORA Hawkins Blue-Green Echinata) – SPS (not in tank)

7. Toadstool Leather (Purple/Green Base, Brown/Gold Polyp) - Soft

8. Toatstool Leather (Loanstar Leather, Bright Green) - Soft

9. Leptastrea (?Gates of Hell) - LPS

10. Christmas Moon Coral (Christmas Coral) - LPS

11. Hairy Mushroom (Purple/Tan) - Soft

12. Zoanthids (Rastas) - Polyp

13. Zoanthids (no ID) - Polyp

14. Zoanthids (no ID) - Polyp

15. Green Star Polyps (GSP) (Purple / Green) - Polyp

16. Xenia (Pink/Purple) - Soft

17. ? Horn Coral (Fluorescent Green/Yellow) - SPS

18. Unidentified LPS () -

19. Unidentified Soft () -

20. Unidentified SPS () -

[FarmerTy]

Firmly in the no hermit crab camp.

That is really good to know about the direct proportion of water removal to nitrate removal.

My refuge will take nitrites out as well, right?

Also, when something dies in a tank how will that affect parameters? I am seeing ammonia levels on the forums, but thought that was all directly linked to the Nitrogen cycle.

Yes Shawn, your refuge should help remove some of your nitrates and water changes will also help.

When something dies, it is basically the start of the nitrogen cycle. The decaying matter will breakdown and release ammonia, the ammonia is converted to nitrite, then nitrite converted to nitrate. So, a good possibility of something like the snail dying in your tank could cause an ammonia spike, followed by a nitrite spike, and then an increase in nitrates. To have levels as high as your current levels of nitrates however, I feel like it is more than just the snail dying. I just think the system is not processing nitrates as fast as they are being produced and you are being left with a high residual concentration in your tank. Again, water changes and the kick-up of your refugium should help alleviate some of it.

Ideally, I would say to do enough water changes to get your nitrates back down to 5-10 ppm and see what happens to the concentration as you resume your normal level of water changes. That way, you can see if the current maintenance regiment for your tank is enough to keep nitrate levels low or if it will slowly climb again.

I like how you work sir with the spreadsheet! Myself, maybe it's because I've been doing it so long, but I don't bother documenting the flow or lighting preferences because you can ask me about any coral I have and I can tell you off the bat what par levels it prefers and what flow. Doesn't mean I have it in its perfectly ideal flow and par but that is where I have had success with it. I do like to keep a spreadsheet of all my corals to document what I have and I also document when I added it to my tank and usually from what source I got the frag (i.e. AquaSD, Austin Aqua Farms, RCA, Victoly, RichardL, Sam, reanimated it from the dead, etc).

[ShawnKoto]

Thanks for all the feedback, Ty. So, I came home today and two more snails have died. My shrimp and crabs are fine, but everything in a shell seems to be dying. Matter of fact I hardly see anything else with a problem. I am going to do some water tests tonight as well. The nitrate thing is strange, because when I test with the strip pads it says I am in good range and when I test my API drip kit it is in good range--shows how good these testing tools are. I hope the water change will help--this stuff is nerve wracking. I am not sure what is going on. I am doing a water change right now though.

Also, would a skimmer help drastically with the nutrient issue?

The other recent worry I have is about a toadstool leather that I have. It is shriveling on the bottom of the head and some of the polyps are turning white in patches. I have researched a little and haven't found anything really. It is one of the first things that I put in the tank and it has always been fine. Here are some pics:

You see the location in the next photo. The only things reasonably close to it are the GSP and the Kenya tree, neither of which I think would hurt it.

Everythign else seems to be doing fine.

Any ideas?

I might post this in the regular build section as well as I know that you are not a soft coral guy.