Hatin' Apex This Morning

[George Monnat Jr]

Overall, I really like my Neptune Apex controller, but this weekend it pushed me over the brink. Now I'm hanging on the cliff by a skinny root.

It all started 18 December 2012. I took a sample of my DT water to RCA, and Jake tested it for me. Everything was good, except salinity. He calibrated his refractometer and checked twice, and it read 1.027 specific gravity. That was disturbing for me, because my PINPOINT Salinity Monitor had been reading around 52.7 mS/cm or 1.0257 specific gravity. I put the PINPOINT Salinity Monitor probe in the same sample bottle and read 52.9 mS/cm, or 1.0258. I had already cleaned it with vinegar recently and didn't have any 53.0 mS/cm calibration solution handy, so I was hoping that the sample bottle happened to be at a different temperature or something. I went ahead and started slowly lowering salinity with ATO addition, though.

I dusted off my old hydrometer that Shane had calibrated with a pen for me (basically adjusted by +0.002). It read 1.0248+0.002 = 1.0268 specific gravity which jived with Jake. I didn't trust that hydrometer, even more than others, because the markings on it are blatantly wrong. The scale shows 1.024 sg = 35 ppt when other hydrometers (and science) have 1.024 sg = 32.5 ppt. So I still wasn't sure what was going on although I suspected Jake was right.

I was seriously bothered by the fact that my PINPOINT Salinity Monitor had been incorrect low for months meaning my salinity had been too high for a while. It had been near the heaters in the skimmer section of the sump, so I moved it to a different area. That didn't make a difference (it has internal temperature compensation but I don't know their algorithm).

On 19 December 2012, I ordered a Neptune conductivity probe for the Apex, which meant I had to also buy a PM2 module. I also got a 2nd temperature probe for the PM2 so I could temperature compensate for the conductivity probe. Partially due to the holidays, I didn't get the Apex PM2 and probes until 02 January 2013. During those two weeks, over a dozen Frogspawn heads died and a half-dozen small BTA clones disappeared. I didn't see anything else, but that was bad enough. I had lowered my salinity and couldn't say for sure if that was the one and only issue.

The new Apex conductivity probe, temperature compensated at 2.2 %/C, without calibration (no fluid, yet) read 55.5 mS/cm or 1.0273 sg while the PINPOINT Salinity Monitor still read 51.0 mS/cm or 1.0248 sg. About a week later I finally got some PINPOINT 53.0 mS/cm calibration solution. I calibrated both, and they read:

PINPOINT Salinity Monitor: 49.0 mS/cm or 1.0236 sg

Apex conductivity probe: 48.8 mS/cm or 1.0235 sg

That jived with my old hydrometer, and of course I had swung the salinity too low. Over the next couple of weeks I slowly brought salinity back up to:

PINPOINT Salinity Monitor: 53.0 mS/cm or 1.0260 sg

Apex conductivity probe: 53.2 mS/cm or 1.0261 sg

Nothing was dying and everything was great. By the end of the month, the PINPOINT started drooping a bit, again:

PINPOINT Salinity Monitor: 52.0 mS/cm or 1.0253 sg

Apex conductivity probe: 52.7 mS/cm or 1.0257 sg

I didn't think much of it, because the PINPOINT was in the sump closer to the heaters while the Apex probe was in the DT. Plus at this point I assumed the PINPOINT was less accurate and the Apex conductivity probe more accurate and reliable. Fast forward to yesterday, and this is where Apex anger comes in.

For about a week the dreaded dinoflagellates have reared their collective ugly heads in my DT. It was after an accidental spike in carbon dosing and after I restarted serious GFO use. I've read that a bad PO4/C ratio can encourage dino. I don't know if that's why they popped up, but I know for sure high salinity does not bother dinoflagellates.

Because of the dinoflagellates, I boosted my pH from around 8.2 to around 8.4 (as suggested by multiple sources, including here). That's mostly how I defeated them the last time. First I wanted to clean and calibrate my pH probes. I cleaned them in vinegar and calibrated them via the Apex utility with PINPOINT 7.00 and 10.00 calibration fluid. It took me about four hours on Friday night (three nights ago) which was very, very frustrating. It’s annoying when you let it settle and then in the 10.00 solution it reads 10.00 or 10.01 then it reads around 6.4 in the 7.00 solution. I finally got them to read correctly in both solutions, and in the sump they read close to each other. What’s annoying is that the sump pH probe reads lower than the DT probe (while collocated) and has a higher slope/gain than the DT probe. They read 8.27/8.42 when kalkwasser was added to the sump causing a spike. The sump probe rose much faster such that by 8.59 they read the same. I thought the point of using two calibration fluids was to set the same gain on these stupid things, but apparently Apex’s calibration algorithm sucks. That started my frustration.

I was keeping pH around 8.4 by adding a lot of kalkwasser/limewater with the ATO. If the sump level got high enough to trip the float switches because evaporation wasn’t keeping up, then I would remove a gallon or so. That meant my salinity was dropping, so I added Seachem aquavitro salinity™ to keep the salinity up. Since I was removing SW (not just replacing evaporation), adding only about ¼ cup of Seachem aquavitro salinity per gallon of ATO and it takes ½ cup to get 1g of RODI up to 1.026, I figured everything was going fine. My Apex conductivity probe showed a fairly constant level around the ideal 52.9 mS/cm or 1.0258 sg. Both the Apex probe and the PINPOINT Salinity Monitor started trending lower, so I was adding a little more salt; mainly because I believed the Apex conductivity probe was accurate even if the PINPOINT had started drooping again.

Yesterday was when it got really bad. After sleeping in (only 8 hrs sleep but went to bed really late) and waking up, I went to check and see if the Apex accounted for daylight savings. I was happy to see that it had. But the pH was really low at 8.09/8.17 when it should’ve been around 8.4! I tried to look back in the logs to see what happened, and the last log was 0150 – just before daylight savings at 0200. At 0150 the pH was just fine at 8.40/8.44, but I have no idea what happened in the mean time. I had to cycle power to the Apex to get it logging again after playing with various settings failed to fix it.

Then I looked in the DT (lights still off due to reduced photo-period fighting dinoflagellates). There had been a snow storm! Everything was coated with abiotic calcium precipitation (white powder). Crap. In an effort to figure out what happened (impossible with the stupid logs) I decided to calibrate the salinity/conductivity probes again.

Why not use a refractometer you’ve probably been asking. I had purchased a used JBJ C-Scope Refractometer from an ARC member last year, but I stored it away and never bothered learning how to use it. I thought my multiple probes were working (stupid assumption). Well, I busted it out last night, calibrated it and used it. It read 1.028, that’s a crazy high salinity! Again! My old hydrometer (with cal markings) also showed 1.075 sg, or close to the refractometer. Not only was the PINPOINT Salinity Monitor crap (again) but the Apex conductivity probe was also off. What’s worse is that they were off low by about the same percentage furthering the illusion that they were still fairly accurate.

After those findings yesterday I spent about 4 hours trying to calibrate these stupid probes. The calibration procedure for the Apex conductivity is crap. It settles (supposedly) to zero then settles to 53.0 mS/cm in the calibration solution, but then when you hit finished it reads about 54.5 mS/cm while still in the 53.0 mS/cm calibration solution. Sometimes. I used 3 different calibration solution bottles to make sure that wasn't the problem (wasted money). Once it read 53.1 mS/cm after calibration, so I threw it in the DT. It then read 68.7 mS/cm! My salinity is high, but it’s not that high. Really late last night I finally gave up and calibrated it without the temperature compensation (after keeping it with the thermometer at all times, floating everything to maintain temperature, etc.), and it showed 56.6 mS/cm. That’s about 1.0280 sg which jives with the refractometer, so I said, “Screw you guys, I’m going to bed.”

I have a separate digital thermometer to verify the accuracy of and calibrate to the Apex thermometers, and now I’m going to use the refractometer to do the same on at least a weekly basis and before any big water changes/additions. The Apex failed me with a 12 hour gap in logging and an inaccurate conductivity probe and meter on top of the huge hassle and unreliability of the pH and conductivity probe calibration algorithms. Other than that, I still like the Apex. Luckily most of my stuff is still alive, or I’d really be upset. And the Apex would've learned to fly.

[+Mitch]

Contact Neptune! Their support guys have been great!

[George Monnat Jr]

I can see if they have a firmware update that fixes the calibration procedure, but they probably can't do more for me than that.

[victoly]

I can tell you the overarching problem here is that in general, salinity/conductivity probes SUCK. I would strongly advise that you don't use any decision based logic off of your conductivity probes. I see this professionally, regularly.

For reference, when I'm using my conductivity probes, i calibrate them every. single. day. and they still give me issues. These are not the dinky (no offense apex) probes that are neptune compatible, these are parts of a piece of machinery worth thousands of dollars.

It sucks that you're having problems, and I want to help you work through them, but the first thing you should do is to shut off your SpC probe, and rely solely on your refractometer until we can get you straight.

[victoly]

I can see if they have a firmware update that fixes the calibration procedure, but they probably can't do more for me than that.

It would fix a lot of things if you could calibrate from your friggin phone without having to walk back and forth to a computer.

[George Monnat Jr]

Yea, I'm going to be using the refractometer from now on. That lesson is well learned. I'm also going to update my Apex to ver. 4.20. That'll probably keep me yelling at something tonight.

[victoly]

hah, it's actually not too bad. I just did RichardL's on saturday. Pretty painless. I can walk you through it if you get stuck or want to murder someone have a good cry in your pillow.

[victoly]

another thing you can check, is if you go to the comprehensive neptune manual on p14, there's a pretty good section on troubleshooting probes. One that might be helpful in your case is:

6. Take advantage of the ‘Defer’ command on your probe statements to eliminate brief value swings (doesn’t solve the interference problem but does minimize its symptoms)

I find this to be particularly helpful for both ATO if you're doing it via floats and a breakout box or for anything temperature related (heaters, chillers, etc). If your temp probe freaks out, and it spits out a random high/low value, you don't want to activate some logic based off of an anomolous reading. The defer statement (Defer for X amount of time) makes it such that a given value has to be true for a set period of time before an action will be taken.

[+Mitch]

FYI while debugging my pH port problems, Neptune support gave me undocumented, i believe, ways to do further diagnostics. I imagine they will have the same for the PM2.

[victoly]

smash with mallet?

[George Monnat Jr]

Yea, all my Apex macros have defer, such as:

Fallback OFF

Set ON

If Switch1 OPEN Then OFF

If pHsump > 08.20 Then OFF

If pH2dt > 08.28 Then OFF

If pHsump < 07.40 Then OFF

Defer 000:05 Then OFF

Part of my overall frustration is that I really liked having the ability to monitor and log trends. I had cool graphs that I could check out from work or while traveling. They just weren't accurate (but they looked nice). Ah well, salinity shouldn't change that often anyways. I'm going to follow victoly's recommendation to unplug the stupid thing.

At least I can still use the PM2 for a second temperature probe. That has proven its worth already, because while I was at work I saw the DT and sump temperatures sharply diverge. My UPS had a fault, and the return pump had shut off. I was able to run home and fix it with no problems, so the PM2 itself earned credit with me that day.

[+Jakedoza]

I guess I don't get how I do not have these issues with my tank at all since I do not monitor anything except temperature. I do have a calc reactor with a controller, but once I set that I haven't touched it except to fill Co2 and media.. I think all these tools help complicate the simplicity of it all though I too wish I had an Apex..

I think you are better off checking salinity with a refractometer and using an ATO system on your tank. Your salinity shouldn't fluctuate at all if your ATO is working properly, and if you match the salinity of your new water with your tank water when you do a change as well as put in the same amount as you pull out. As far as PH.. I think everyone's tank swings slightly, but the more stuff you throw in your tank to force it one way or another IMO does more harm than good in the long run.

[+Jakedoza]

BTW.. if you had to take a water sample to RCA to get the salinity tested.. how do you test the salinity of the water you use/mix for water changes?

[George Monnat Jr]

The salinity isn't tied into my ATO system. It was me manually adding salt, because I knew that the ATO was adding more than normal (or more than for just evaporation). My problem was relying on conductivity meters instead of using the refractometer. I won't make that mistake again, and hopefully someone will read this before they make a similar mistake.

Since I add kalkwasser (limewater) with a pH around 12 in with my ATO, I need the pH probes. They don't need to be dead-on accurate. They just need to stop the ATO from adding KW until the pH is around 10 or until it all precipitates out in a snowstorm (which is probably what happened early Sunday morning). Other than the annoying calibration procedures and maybe whatever happened during DST, I haven't had any problems with the pH probes. And it was nice to be able to dial it up from 8.2 to 8.4 to fight dino just by changing a couple of numbers.

[George Monnat Jr]

BTW.. if you had to take a water sample to RCA to get the salinity tested.. how do you test the salinity of the water you use/mix for water changes?

I work about 2 blocks from RCA, so I get it tested there often. It's a great service they provide (and what led me to doubt the conductivity meters). I was using the conductivity meters and the occasional hydrometer reading as backup, but I'll be using the refractometer exclusively from now on.

[+Capt. Obvious]

so you were adding salt directly to your system? as in dry salt into your sump or display?

[victoly]

Yea, all my Apex macros have defer, such as:

Fallback OFF

Set ON

If Switch1 OPEN Then OFF

If pHsump > 08.20 Then OFF

If pH2dt > 08.28 Then OFF

If pHsump < 07.40 Then OFF

Defer 000:05 Then OFF

Part of my overall frustration is that I really liked having the ability to monitor and log trends. I had cool graphs that I could check out from work or while traveling. They just weren't accurate (but they looked nice). Ah well, salinity shouldn't change that often anyways. I'm going to follow victoly's recommendation to unplug the stupid thing.

At least I can still use the PM2 for a second temperature probe. That has proven its worth already, because while I was at work I saw the DT and sump temperatures sharply diverge. My UPS had a fault, and the return pump had shut off. I was able to run home and fix it with no problems, so the PM2 itself earned credit with me that day.

Just a minor comment on this, I don't know how frequently the apex polls it's pH probe, but a 5 second defer may not be enough time to catch a blip reading. You might consider extending that out to more like a minute or two.

[George Monnat Jr]

so you were adding salt directly to your system? as in dry salt into your sump or display?

No, mixing in RODI, letting settle while measure with conductivity probe and/or hydrometer, then pouring in the high flow section of the sump.

[George Monnat Jr]

Yea, all my Apex macros have defer, such as:

...

Just a minor comment on this, I don't know how frequently the apex polls it's pH probe, but a 5 second defer may not be enough time to catch a blip reading. You might consider extending that out to more like a minute or two.

A blip shutting off the ATO isn't a big deal, but a longer defer may be a good idea. It's just that the pH can spike really fast. The ones on my heaters/fans are much longer.

[+Capt. Obvious]

ok, had me worried there for a min.

[+Jakedoza]

The salinity isn't tied into my ATO system. It was me manually adding salt, because I knew that the ATO was adding more than normal (or more than for just evaporation). My problem was relying on conductivity meters instead of using the refractometer. I won't make that mistake again, and hopefully someone will read this before they make a similar mistake.

Since I add kalkwasser (limewater) with a pH around 12 in with my ATO, I need the pH probes. They don't need to be dead-on accurate. They just need to stop the ATO from adding KW until the pH is around 10 or until it all precipitates out in a snowstorm (which is probably what happened early Sunday morning). Other than the annoying calibration procedures and maybe whatever happened during DST, I haven't had any problems with the pH probes. And it was nice to be able to dial it up from 8.2 to 8.4 to fight dino just by changing a couple of numbers.

I take it your ATO adds other things other than just RO/DI? I don't think that is a very reliable solution since your evaporation rate will change from day to day depending on air temperature, humidity, and air flow in the room. Your ATO should ONLY be adding RO/DI to your tank.. as other elements do not evaporate.

[George Monnat Jr]

My ATO adds kalkwasser/limewater. Like here. Just a few teaspoons of pickling lime. It adds KH and Ca completely balanced and dirt cheap. My KH and Ca have been perfect since I started dosing KW over a year ago, and I don't use a Ca RX. Because pH is directly proportional to KH (and CO2), my pH is steady, too. And that's how I can dial in my pH with the ATO, as with the macro I posted above.

[George Monnat Jr]

I forgot to add, since my controller keeps temperature within 0.5F my evaporation rate is pretty constant, too. I love evaporation, because that means more KW. I check my parameters weekly and RCA double-checks them for me every other week. Only salinity has been a problem, and that was my unwise reliance on the conductivity probes (not really related to ATO or other parameters).

[DerrickH]

George, I fought dino's for so long and just gave up eventually. I noticed one thing when I got them both times. They did not show up till I started dosing wages pickling lime!!!

Dino also thrives in higher salinity levels. Im guessing they feed off of the trace elements in the salt mix. Water changes will INCREASE the growth rate of dino's. Basically, I just let my tank sit with next to no photo period, no water changes, and no dosing and it took care of its self. I started dosing again after there was no sign of them (low ph and CA) and BAM they showed back up. Needless to say, I just sold the whole lot....I have a small tank now and I dont dose anything and I have had no algae problems whatsoever. Just a small bag of GAC/GFO and thats it.

[George Monnat Jr]

I've used Mrs. Wage's the whole time. Both times I've gotten dino outbreaks was after an inadvertent large dose of vinegar, or carbon. I mix 5% vinegar in my kalkwasser/limewater to dissolve more pickling lime and carbon dose. A couple of times now, for some reason I've added too much vinegar in too short a time frame and the dinos pop up. I've stopped the vinegar, raised pH, reduced feeding, run more GFO/GAC and cut lights and they appear to be receding. Last time I "killed" four LR. This time I removed one of those original four that I was trying to recover, because I think it was leaching PO4 even after all the bleaching and cleaning. Hopefully I won't have to kill any LR this time.

I agree that higher salinity encourages them like you mentioned and I've seen the last 2 weeks.

I think I can get the dino "dormant" again, but I'm afraid it will always be lurking...