+Jakedoza Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I'll do a water change about once every 3 months.. I have 2 TLF reactors I use.. one has carbon the other has a Po4 absorber. I have a calcium reactor that runs as well. I don't dose anything except Kent essential elements, Lugol's solution, and Strontium and Molybdenum once a week. My salinity never changes as my ATO tops off the system with RO/DI and I keep my ATO filled. Temperature is controlled by a chiller and I have never needed a heater. I test salinity with a refractometer when mixing saltwater.I don't understand how your tank can loose salinity unless you over fill the system with RO/DI.. and since you dose your ATO tank and it doses your DT, the more it tops off, the more you dose.. It isn't the most reliable way to dose a system. I know that my ATO has gotten stuck before and over filled the tank, but an extra 5 gal of water isn't that much in system that runs a total of about 160 gallons of water. If I had been dosing my tank the way you do, I think I may have had a huge problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 I'll do a water change about once every 3 months.. I have 2 TLF reactors I use.. one has carbon the other has a Po4 absorber. I have a calcium reactor that runs as well. I don't dose anything except Kent essential elements, Lugol's solution, and Strontium and Molybdenum once a week. My salinity never changes as my ATO tops off the system with RO/DI and I keep my ATO filled. Temperature is controlled by a chiller and I have never needed a heater. I test salinity with a refractometer when mixing saltwater. I don't understand how your tank can loose salinity unless you over fill the system with RO/DI.. and since you dose your ATO tank and it doses your DT, the more it tops off, the more you dose.. It isn't the most reliable way to dose a system. I know that my ATO has gotten stuck before and over filled the tank, but an extra 5 gal of water isn't that much in system that runs a total of about 160 gallons of water. If I had been dosing my tank the way you do, I think I may have had a huge problem. My ATO has nothing to do with salinity, directly and normally. Pickling lime adds KH and Ca but adds zero to salinity, so my ATO functions exactly the same, salinity-wise, as you described for yours. I'm currently lowering salinity manually by using bins to pull SW from my sump. Then when the ATO fills it back up with RODI, the salinity goes down. That's because I added too much salt previously due to the crappy conductivity meters - not due to the ATO. The ATO is working perfectly like it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I'll do a water change about once every 3 months.. I have 2 TLF reactors I use.. one has carbon the other has a Po4 absorber. I have a calcium reactor that runs as well. I don't dose anything except Kent essential elements, Lugol's solution, and Strontium and Molybdenum once a week. My salinity never changes as my ATO tops off the system with RO/DI and I keep my ATO filled. Temperature is controlled by a chiller and I have never needed a heater. I test salinity with a refractometer when mixing saltwater. I don't understand how your tank can loose salinity unless you over fill the system with RO/DI.. and since you dose your ATO tank and it doses your DT, the more it tops off, the more you dose.. It isn't the most reliable way to dose a system. I know that my ATO has gotten stuck before and over filled the tank, but an extra 5 gal of water isn't that much in system that runs a total of about 160 gallons of water. If I had been dosing my tank the way you do, I think I may have had a huge problem. My ATO has nothing to do with salinity, directly and normally. Pickling lime adds KH and Ca but adds zero to salinity, so my ATO functions exactly the same, salinity-wise, as you described for yours. I'm currently lowering salinity manually by using bins to pull SW from my sump. Then when the ATO fills it back up with RODI, the salinity goes down. That's because I added too much salt previously due to the crappy conductivity meters - not due to the ATO. The ATO is working perfectly like it should be. I dont think it was photodude's intended path of logic, but there is some evidence to suggest that elements of the pickling lime *may* be affecting your salinity reading. Emphasis on reading. Remember that salinity is a conversion of another parameter that the probe is actually testing for called specific conductivity. Ionic calcium, calcium carbonate and bicarbonate DO affect the specific conductivity. I haven't experimentally verified this, if your apex still has data log, and youre using a breakout box for ATO, you would be able to see a correlation between when your ATO is on and a change in conductivity. Just something to ponder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 I'll do a water change about once every 3 months.. I have 2 TLF reactors I use.. one has carbon the other has a Po4 absorber. I have a calcium reactor that runs as well. I don't dose anything except Kent essential elements, Lugol's solution, and Strontium and Molybdenum once a week. My salinity never changes as my ATO tops off the system with RO/DI and I keep my ATO filled. Temperature is controlled by a chiller and I have never needed a heater. I test salinity with a refractometer when mixing saltwater. I don't understand how your tank can loose salinity unless you over fill the system with RO/DI.. and since you dose your ATO tank and it doses your DT, the more it tops off, the more you dose.. It isn't the most reliable way to dose a system. I know that my ATO has gotten stuck before and over filled the tank, but an extra 5 gal of water isn't that much in system that runs a total of about 160 gallons of water. If I had been dosing my tank the way you do, I think I may have had a huge problem. My ATO has nothing to do with salinity, directly and normally. Pickling lime adds KH and Ca but adds zero to salinity, so my ATO functions exactly the same, salinity-wise, as you described for yours. I'm currently lowering salinity manually by using bins to pull SW from my sump. Then when the ATO fills it back up with RODI, the salinity goes down. That's because I added too much salt previously due to the crappy conductivity meters - not due to the ATO. The ATO is working perfectly like it should be. I dont think it was photodude's intended path of logic, but there is some evidence to suggest that elements of the pickling lime *may* be affecting your salinity reading. Emphasis on reading. Remember that salinity is a conversion of another parameter that the probe is actually testing for called specific conductivity. Ionic calcium, calcium carbonate and bicarbonate DO affect the specific conductivity. I haven't experimentally verified this, if your apex still has data log, and youre using a breakout box for ATO, you would be able to see a correlation between when your ATO is on and a change in conductivity. Just something to ponder For about 8-10 months my ATO was replacing evaporation with RODI and pickling lime with no noticeable change in salinity. That was verified through 1-2 times a month having RCA test my water to verify my readings in addition to a conductivity meter and several hydrometers. Everything was fine until last December when Jake at RCA noticed my salinity had gone really high, which was when my PINPOINT Salinity Monitor stopped being accurate (reading low causing me to add super-saturated SW). Yes, limewater has conductive ions, "saturated limewater usually has a conductivity of about 10.3 mS/cm," but those ions are "wasted" by CO2 (insoluble calcium carbonate) or are used in the system as KH & Ca without any real effect on overall system conductivity. Unless I guess they plate out on the conductivity probe's electrodes which is a possibility. Here's more detail: The Degradation of Limewater in Air All about kalkwasser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Jakedoza Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 sounds like someone needs a refractometer.. Hydrometers are junk.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 sounds like someone needs a refractometer.. Hydrometers are junk.. I agree with you 100%. I started using one Sunday and unplugged my conductivity meters. I'd sell them or even give them away, but that would be screwing someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Jakedoza Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 do you mix your own water or get premixed? What about RO/DI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I'll do a water change about once every 3 months.. I have 2 TLF reactors I use.. one has carbon the other has a Po4 absorber. I have a calcium reactor that runs as well. I don't dose anything except Kent essential elements, Lugol's solution, and Strontium and Molybdenum once a week. My salinity never changes as my ATO tops off the system with RO/DI and I keep my ATO filled. Temperature is controlled by a chiller and I have never needed a heater. I test salinity with a refractometer when mixing saltwater. I don't understand how your tank can loose salinity unless you over fill the system with RO/DI.. and since you dose your ATO tank and it doses your DT, the more it tops off, the more you dose.. It isn't the most reliable way to dose a system. I know that my ATO has gotten stuck before and over filled the tank, but an extra 5 gal of water isn't that much in system that runs a total of about 160 gallons of water. If I had been dosing my tank the way you do, I think I may have had a huge problem. My ATO has nothing to do with salinity, directly and normally. Pickling lime adds KH and Ca but adds zero to salinity, so my ATO functions exactly the same, salinity-wise, as you described for yours. I'm currently lowering salinity manually by using bins to pull SW from my sump. Then when the ATO fills it back up with RODI, the salinity goes down. That's because I added too much salt previously due to the crappy conductivity meters - not due to the ATO. The ATO is working perfectly like it should be. I dont think it was photodude's intended path of logic, but there is some evidence to suggest that elements of the pickling lime *may* be affecting your salinity reading. Emphasis on reading. Remember that salinity is a conversion of another parameter that the probe is actually testing for called specific conductivity. Ionic calcium, calcium carbonate and bicarbonate DO affect the specific conductivity. I haven't experimentally verified this, if your apex still has data log, and youre using a breakout box for ATO, you would be able to see a correlation between when your ATO is on and a change in conductivity. Just something to ponder For about 8-10 months my ATO was replacing evaporation with RODI and pickling lime with no noticeable change in salinity. That was verified through 1-2 times a month having RCA test my water to verify my readings in addition to a conductivity meter and several hydrometers. Everything was fine until last December when Jake at RCA noticed my salinity had gone really high, which was when my PINPOINT Salinity Monitor stopped being accurate (reading low causing me to add super-saturated SW). Yes, limewater has conductive ions, "saturated limewater usually has a conductivity of about 10.3 mS/cm," but those ions are "wasted" by CO2 (insoluble calcium carbonate) or are used in the system as KH & Ca without any real effect on overall system conductivity. Unless I guess they plate out on the conductivity probe's electrodes which is a possibility. Here's more detail: The Degradation of Limewater in Air All about kalkwasser So at 10.5 mS/cm (or 10,500 uS/cm) @ 25 C, you get something like 5 ppt of salinity at 1 atm http://www.fivecreeks.org/monitor/sal.shtml You're right though, alot of that is consumed and reacts with CO2 pretty quickly, and it may not have had an enormous effect on your salinity, but it's just something people should be aware of, and why to second guess every measurement you take/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 I've always purchased Kent Marine SW from Fishy Business or Tropic Marin from RCA and RODI from either. Since I moved west I've been using RCA more, but after victoly measured the chlorine in both I may switch to RCA exclusively. I purchased a jug of Seachem aquavitro salinity in case I needed to raise salinity a bit by putting it in a bin of RODI, letting settle, then bolus dosing. Turns out I didn't need to do that, because salinity wasn't dropping just the readings on the conductivity meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 So at 10.5 mS/cm (or 10,500 uS/cm) @ 25 C, you get something like 5 ppt of salinity at 1 atm http://www.fivecreeks.org/monitor/sal.shtml You're right though, alot of that is consumed and reacts with CO2 pretty quickly, and it may not have had an enormous effect on your salinity, but it's just something people should be aware of, and why to second guess every measurement you take/. Yea, I thought I was with two conductivity meters, two hydrometers and biweekly trips to RCA. But I've learned to use refractometers now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Jakedoza Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Not that I do not trust RCA.. but I hope you do test the RO/DI with a TDS meter.. as well as test your sw salinity with your refractometer. BTW.. RO/DI should have no chloramines at all in it at all.. 0 tds.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Not that I do not trust RCA.. but I hope you do test the RO/DI with a TDS meter.. as well as test your sw salinity with your refractometer. BTW.. RO/DI should have no chloramines at all in it at all.. 0 tds.. I haven't been testing RODI but I will now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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