predator tank

[florenceReefer]

Just learned today that a friend of the family is gonna give me her 65g tank when she moves, but im gonna make it a predator tank with a couple lions and maybe an eel, what all do I need for this tank? I didn't think I should need all the skimmers and such with no coral... should I do live rock still just incase I wanna through a couple lps in there?

[JamesL]

The live rock will help with filtration ... which is going to be key in a predator tank. You need really good filtration since predator tanks tend to get fed a lot more/heavier than reef tanks. The live rock will also provide a more "secure" feel to fish in the tank, as lion fish like to hide to stalk there prey sometimes, plus eels like caves.

Speaking of eels, you will need to make sure you have a good fitting lid. They are notorious escape artists. They don't quite understand they won't live outside of water. Many years ago I had a snowflake eel that I raised from 7 inches long to almost 1.5 feet. Over the course of the years, he was fine till one day he got it in his head to go exploring the dining room floor. Found him dried up on the floor the next morning.

If you don't plan on keeping corals initially, you won't need an ultra-fancy light.

[subsea]

&1 on live rock. I would not crowd tank with live rock that is expensive. Mix it with base rock. Inoculation of biodiversity to tank is a big purpose for live rock. Mature substrate from established tanks also accomplishes this. I do both. I recently picked up a Sea Robin from Port Aransas and am enjoying a predator in my 75G grow out tank.

Enjoy the hobby.

Patrick

[florenceReefer]

Will I need a small tank to hold live food?

[Mark V]

Wouldn't a 65G be a little small for a predator tank? Unless he is going to get smaller predators like a fuzzy lion, indigo hamlet, anglers, etc?

I would think a 6 foot tank would be best to house fish like triggers adult lion fish and groupers

And I would say no to feeders. You should get your predators to eat prepared food. Feeders will shorten their lifespan. When I had a predator tank all my predators could be hand fed because I got them all when they were tiny. My lion fish was so small whenI got him he could only eat brine shrimp I had a trigger loinfish and eel all where hand fed. I stopped hand feeding the trigger because he would go after my fingers lol

Get the biggest skimmer you can afford. If you can't go with a sump go with a reef octopus HOB skimmer. You can save lots of money on the live rock by getting macro rock or base rock and cycling with All in One and then getting some live rock or live sand from one of the members here or from a LFS to seed the critters

I was not able to keep my predator tank very long because my fish outgrew my 55 gallon tank. About a year and a half later I was forced to either upgrade or give them away so I ended up finding them new homes.

I second the eel comment. My snowflake jumped out twice and survived both times. Both times I foun him crawling in the tile and picked him back up.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Mark V

[Timfish]

My .02: I would try to use as big a sump as possible. +1 on the live rock (make sure to "cure" it or quarantine it for 3-4 weeks). I'm indifferent at best regarding skimmers. According to Scott Michael "Marine Fishes, 500 Essntial To Know Aquarium Species" all of the commonly kept lionfish species can be maintained in your tank (largly because they pretty much just sit in one place all day, not active like tangs). But if you stick with the dwarf Dendrochirus species that stay under 6 inches you will be able to keep several together and probably see a lot more activity and possibly even see breeding behaviour. Every lionfish I've kept over the years can be tricked into eating frozen cubes which is much better for them but it can try your patience training them. I certainly would not keep feeding them live feeders any longer than necessary.

[florenceReefer]

Yeah I was planning on training them, im not a fan of dwarf lions if im gonna buy one its gonna be the real thing

[Mark V]

I personally didn't brother with a lion until I found one that ate frozen food and it just happened to be very small. Same with the snowflake I ha I just waited until I found one that was hand fed and it also was very small. A good lfs will have them. I have seen a handful when I live in California at a few lfs when I used to live there

Typically the younger the easier to train them.

When I ha a lion and an eel both were very active but I think that was because they were getting too big for my tank. My eel freely swam and was the boss of the tank.

I love them but if I did it again I wouldn't try unless I had a 120G tank or larger mostly because I would have to get a Triggerfish

Edited September 16, 2012 by Mark V

[subsea]

With respect to predators eating live food, why is it not healthy for them. I have several tanks with third and fourth generation of Mollies born in marine tanks. While it is true about goldfish raised in mass cultures being nutriant deficient for marine predators, I do not think that the generalization is true with respect to these mollies. Sea Robin likes it.

Patrick

[ClarkiiCircus]

Freshwater species tend to have a different lipid content than do saltwater species. The high amounts of useless fats are akin to us eating french fries versus a plain baked potato plus the skin. However, if you're raising your mollies in saltwater...I'm honestly not sure. I would think they still have on average a higher lipid content because they would not necessarily have time to "evolve" persay.

A different option would be to enrich your live food, and even frozen food, before feeding it to your fish. A great product is selcon, and you can just use it as a soak before feeding.

A lot of lions I have seen will eat frozen if you thaw the entire cube out in a small amount of water and baste it into the tank with either a pipette or turkey baster; I think it is honestly just the movement that entices them.

[subsea]

With respect to enriching live foods, the Mollies graze on micro algae. More nutritious than spinach for Popeye.

By the second generation in the marine environment Mollies have high concentrations of complex Omega 3. In a nutshell, they are fit for purpose. I use them as herbivores of nuisance micro algae. In my lagoon tanks, amphipods feed next to Mollies with lights on. I use them together in my clean up crew.

[Mark V]

Aren't mollies more expensive than using frozen food? I really like the ability of mixing foods an not have a feeder tank when I had all my predators on prepared food. Plus hand feeding a 10 inch lion fish and 2 foot eel is always eye catching to guests lol

[subsea]

Aren't mollies more expensive than using frozen food? I really like the ability of mixing foods an not have a feeder tank when I had all my predators on prepared food. Plus hand feeding a 10 inch lion fish and 2 foot eel is always eye catching to guests lol

Your experience with predators is much more than mine. I have not taken the time to train fish. I use Mollies in many of my grow out tanks. The are excellent micro algae grazers? They reproduce live offspring prolifically. The initial Mollies cost $1 from Petsmart. I do not think that is expensive.

Patrick

[Mark V]

For some reason I thought they were 3 or 4 dollar a pop. Yeah one dollar isn't that bad. A good full size predator tank would probably go through 50 feeders a week and you always have to watch for diseases passing to your display fish. In general most people keep their feeder tanks in poor condition or buy as they need both I which are risk to diseases. I personally didn't like maintaining a feeder and a display tank myself.

You honestly could get damsels for free from many hobbyist who want to get rid of them joking of course. I did get a few offers from people when my predators were big enough to eat adult damsels

Edited September 21, 2012 by Mark V

[Sascha D.]

Wouldn't a 65G be a little small for a predator tank? Unless he is going to get smaller predators like a fuzzy lion, indigo hamlet, anglers, etc?

I would think a 6 foot tank would be best to house fish like triggers adult lion fish and groupers

+1 on a 65g being too small for a predator tank. If you do decide to go with predators, then i would go with things that stay smaller. Fu Manchu Lion, Fuzzy Lion, Snowflake Eel, Ribbon Eel, Frogs, ect.

Will I need a small tank to hold live food?

+1 on not feeding live feeders. For one you introduce diseases, which is a horrible experience and you could lose more than just the infected fish when treating. Feeding purely live feeders isn't proper nutrition for any predator. That's a mistake many people make when they get freshwater predators and feed nothing but goldfish. It's like eatting hamburger every night. You have to supplement with other foods like squid, crab, mussles ect.

If you do decide to feed live, then definitely keep a seperate tank so you can keep them in the same water peremeters as your main tank, which reduces shock, and you can treat them for disease.

From my experience, I have found two feeding methods to work well. Frozen foods with stick / tube feedings and natural tanks. In a natural tank (Like Patrick's), you stock live food and the predator just eats whenever he wants. I've had great success keeping eels this way. You can stock 30 different types of mollies in the tank, they breed by themselves and you restock every so often. Predator tanks don't have a lot of movement so they add some variety. Eels usually hide half of their bodies and dwarf lions stick to the rockwork. If you have enough space then a V. Lion will swim around but the tank has to be wide enough for the full body of the lion at max size.

Down side? Most predators are nocturnal so you don't see them eat when the food is just hanging out all day hehe.

Most people stick / tube feed. It's easier to keep the food in the freezer and it is pretty fun to watch your critters eat. Its fun and personal to feed your animals individually, produces less waste due to uneatten food, reduces diseases and reduces energy cost versus keeping a tank of feeders. Down side? Not as fun as watching the ambush.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Sascha D.

[Mark V]

One thing if yOu plan on keeping feeders in especially if you have a trigger (Which I would not recommend for this size tank) is that triggers will nip or fish will escape so your feeder could be injured and getting infections. Also triggers enjoy decapitating feeders so you will have fish heads and parts in your aquarium so watch for waste and rot in the tank. The trigger I had in the past loved to maim feeders and especially was fond of decapitating feeders.

Also if you keep feeders in the tank expect your eels and lions to be very lazy around the tank. A lion will typically follow you around the tank begging for food even if you just fed him when there are no fish to eat. They become a lot more active when follow you around. Also far easier to train to prepared food this way since they will eat anything that touches the water.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Mark V

[florenceReefer]

I thought for sure a 65 long would be enough.... well now im second guessing this! I don't have the money to light a reef tank that size plus I wouldn't buy adults

[Sascha D.]

I thought for sure a 65 long would be enough.... well now im second guessing this! I don't have the money to light a reef tank that size plus I wouldn't buy adults

If you don't mind trading in your fish for smaller ones everytime they get big, then it's okay. V. Lions get pretty big at 15 inches and their fin span adds another 6 inches in every direction.

With and eel you should be pretty safe. They don't grow very fast and 65g should be big enough for most eels for a few years. Morays grow to be 3-4 feet but after that they just get really thick. Snowflake and Zebra moray are probably your best bet because they stay pretty skinny. Something like a Tessalata can grow to be a monster.

As far as reef lighting goes, 65g is fairly shallow and PC's should be good enough for softies. I bought Coralife 2x96 for my 55g and had amazing results for about $100. I wouldn't try to keep sps though.

[florenceReefer]

If I coral it would be lps and softies