subsea Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 My macro growout system will now be enlarged with the greenhouse shade upgrade. Because my requirements are for macro algae and not coral, I have different criteria then reef parameters. With that said, I feel that my important parameters to monitor are temperature, ORP, pH and salinity. I would like to include a network/system that will monitor and report these parameters, I would also like to use this input. to. operate valves, pumps, heaters and fans I think that I need the flexability of PLC logic to perform some of the functions that I am interested in doing. I viewed some products made by Neptune and liked what I read. I am not very familar with this equipment and am looking for suggestions or advice. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard L Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I've got the Apex with all of the probes to monitor all of the parameters you listed above. The Apex is not really a plug and play controller. It requires programming that can be as simple or as complex as you want it so I would think it would be a great choice for what you want. For example I have programmed my Apex to not just monitor temperature but to respond when the tank temperature leaves the desired range of 77.6-77.8 degrees. Consequently, my tank rarely ever fluctuates more than 0.2 degrees from 77.8 in a day. Here's how my Apex is currently programmed: 1. At 77.5 degrees my heater kicks on until it is 77.8 2. At 77.0 degrees my secondary heater turns on until its 77.8 3. At 78.2 degrees my evaporative fans turn on until its 77.6. 4. At 79.0 degrees my refugium lights go off until its 77.6. 5. At 80.0 degrees my skimmer turns off untill its 77.6 and I am sent an alert via text and email 6. At 80.5 degrees my display lights are shut down untill it is 77.6. To do this, Apex uses a programming language kind of like the old Basic computer language that can be frustrating to learn. There is an unofficial guide to the Apex that is available free online that is a simple, comprehensive guide that gives you the programming code for almost every situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 PLC logic is required for my application. My macroalgae scientist friend informs me that ozone is not important but alkalinity and carbon dioxide are critical parameters. Between knowing pH with alkalinity then carbon dioxide can be calculated. Whichever meter probe between alkalinity and carbon dioxide is more reliable and less costly is the parameter that I want to monitor. Does Apex have the probes for alkalinity or carbon dioxide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 The solubility of different gases at temperature and bioload are critical for optomizing operating parameters. When economy of product has equal importance as production quantities, it is paramount to see different operating parameters in real time. At this time, I have diffuser columns which break up water (maximum flow at 100 GPM) and assist with gas exchange. Depending on requirement, I also use regenative blowers to make counterflow degassing columns. To accomplish this extreme gas exchange requires a minimum of two 1/2 HP electric motors. It was never a doubt in my mind that if could grow ediable macro in the heat of "Il fait chaud". How much does it cost to grow in this hot enviroment is the "million dollar question". Monitoring operating parameters from the comfrot of an air conditioned computer is where I want to be when problem solving. Solding sun and sweat in the eyes are to be minimized. It seems that I need a good aftermarket carbon dioxide probe/monitor that is abled to be interfaced with Apex controllers. Does Neptune provide a module that allows this interface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 The only probes that aquacontrollers are compatible with are pH, ORP, DO, Specific Conductivity and salinity (temp also). Aqueous CO2 sensors are uncommon, especially at a small scale. However, if you control your input source water's alkalinity, you can have a pretty good approximation of CO2 content via pH and temperature. Here's a little light reading: https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/112/ How precise do you need the CO2 readings to be? I would think that using the pH/Alk/temp relationship that you can get a decent idea of your CO2 concentration. As for being able to monitor this real time via the APEX, youre SOL. You would probably need to construct a project specific SCADA type of system, and youre talking big bucks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard L Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't think they have the capability to monitor Alk or CO2 but i'd give Neptune a call. Still one of the companies you can talk to a live, knowledgeable human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 I have talked with the factory representative from Neptune System. He informs me, there are no probes that monitor alkalinity and carbon dioxide on a continuous basis. I know that this is incorrect because I have googled probe/monitor for carbon dioxide in water. I will accept that I do not want to re-design the wheel with a customized monitoring system that cost big bucks. There are test kits that will produce the values that I desire. It is not required for me to know these parameters on a continious basis. What I do want to know is how aggressive do I need to get with oxygen and carbon dioxide gas exchange during peak photosynthesys. Also for diagnostics and economy, can I turn off some circulation and air movement at night time? I should be able to either measure these gases in solution either with partial pressure or test for alkalinity which is the result of these gases in solution. More than ten years ago, I had a Neptune System for monitoring my coral growout system. At that time the DO probe was expensive and required dedicated maintenance with mechanical cleaning as well as vinegar baths. When I build bigger systems, I may well customize design and build a system to inlude the parameters of alkalinity and/or carbon dioxide. Patrick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 The only probes that aquacontrollers are compatible with are pH, ORP, DO, Specific Conductivity and salinity (temp also). Aqueous CO2 sensors are uncommon, especially at a small scale. However, if you control your input source water's alkalinity, you can have a pretty good approximation of CO2 content via pH and temperature. Here's a little light reading: https://srac.tamu.ed...hfactsheet/112/ How precise do you need the CO2 readings to be? I would think that using the pH/Alk/temp relationship that you can get a decent idea of your CO2 concentration. As for being able to monitor this real time via the APEX, youre SOL. You would probably need to construct a project specific SCADA type of system, and youre talking big bucks now. Good link. The section on phyto plankton provided some insight into optomizing operating parameters. Forty years ago, I worked for Dow Chemical at there Freeport facility. At that time, I monitored boiler water and cooling tower water chemistry. I had set up a 10G tank using cooling tower water discharge. It was set up as a brackish tank with critters and plants from the estuaries. Once upper management realized how benificial this was for public relations with particular emphasis on the enviromental stewardship demonstrated with an ecosystem operating with cooling tower discharge water. At that time in the early 70's this 300 MW power plant had a permit to discharge 100 pounds of chromate each day. Because Dow realized the damage to public perseption, they discontinued this easy and effective water treatment practice and initiated a labor intensive process using a phosphate scale program to protect cooling water heat exchanger surfaces. I enjoyed the reading. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 http://www.ysilifesciences.com/index.php?page=product-specifications-5 YSI 8500 monitors carbon dioxide at a cost of $1000. I am not likely to buy this. However, I will test for alkalinity to follow the carbon dioxide in my circulatin system. At this time, I am circulating 500 gallons under a 60% shade cloth with one tank growing Gracilaria Parvispora, Tang Heaven Red. I received one pound from Hawaii about 1 month ago. I now have at least 10 pounds circulating and multiplying by fragmentation. Without instrumentation, it is growing by leaps and bounds. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Yeah. YSI makes great products, i use them fairly regularly. However, to make use of that probe, you have to have some backend hardware to take that signal that it produces and make it do something. It would be easy enough to read it manually and then do x,y or z, but then what's the point if youre turning 1 lb into 10 lbs anyway. Seems like maybe KISS is the way to go here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1803/Degassing-Columns I originally got these degassing columns to assist with evaporative cooling. However, I think that they will supply CO2 during daytime photosynthesis and remove CO2 at night while supplying oxygen. After talking with Neptune Systems technical sales, I am getting a modified Apex Jr. controller to monitor pH, salinity and temperature. After this is up and running, I will add a wireless transmitter to couple this to my PC and telephone. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yeah. YSI makes great products, i use them fairly regularly. However, to make use of that probe, you have to have some backend hardware to take that signal that it produces and make it do something. It would be easy enough to read it manually and then do x,y or z, but then what's the point if youre turning 1 lb into 10 lbs anyway. Seems like maybe KISS is the way to go here. I spoke with Neptune Systems support personnel about using the ORP interface for the signal from the YSI monitor. It would be easy to do as the ORP interface uses a variable voltage, 10-800mV, input. I would need to scale the variable output from YSI and match the range of the ORP interface. However, the YSI 8500 is not worth $1000 to me when I can do it manually with titration test. While my productivity is high, I may be using more electricity then I need to. Because electricity is cheap, it is not much of a concern at this time. However, the process that I am doing is to develope prototype units to grow food off of the grid. Investors want to be enviromentally responsible with good stewardship of resources. My principal investor wants to see details on optomizing critical parameters so that he can sell these units internationally. To optomize critical parameters requires monitors which report these parameters and have the ability to be programmed for automatic controls. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerrickH Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You need one of these! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 very clever patrick being able to use the ORP probe port for other parameters really opens up a whole world of possibilities. I wish neptune would release some more information about this practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 very clever patrick being able to use the ORP probe port for other parameters really opens up a whole world of possibilities. I wish neptune would release some more information about this practice. I have found Neptune customer service very helpful. While it is true, I had to put it in their face before they gave up the details, Neptune Systems has provided exceptional technical support. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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