Red Algae and Live Sand

[fishface]

We've got three questions this morning.

(1) We just discovered that what we thought was good red algae is actually killing off the lovely anemones that were growing on our live rock. We're looking for a quick cure that won't disturb our fish. Is there anything wrong with just scraping off the bad stuff? It's primarily on two of our live rocks and one of them has bubbles all over it. These are the live rock that are closest to the light but the light is the proper type so we know they need to be moved down. We'd prefer not to mess with chemicals.

(2) We have live sand in our aquarium and want to do a water change to get rid of some of the uneaten food our shrimp has left and other grossities, but we have live sand. How can we effectively clean the bottom of the tank without causing a major "dust storm" in it?

(3) Is it normal for a very large coral banded shrimp to stay on only one rock in the aquarium and NEVER move? By the way, he molted again last night so we have what looks to be a full ecto skeleton if anyone wants it.

Thanks for any help!

[wa1tx]

Here is my 2 cents....

Does the red algae come off the rock if you brush at it? Any algae problem I had when I had my 29G i cured with phosguard and water changes. I did a 25-50% water change every three days for about a week and it would wipe out any issues I had.

There are gravel vacuum you can buy that clean the gravel/sand.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752298

I have used them and they cause somewhat of a dust storm, but not too bad. Since I got a fighting conch (sp) and more clean up crew I have not had a need to clean my sand.

My shrimp stays in one place most of the time. He set up a "cleaning station" for the fish not long after I put him in the tank. He comes away from it to eat and then goes back. The fact that he is molting makes me think he is happy and growing.

[Long]

If it comes off easily I would use a small air hose to spot clean the areas infected. Phosguard

will definately help.

[subsea]

When you say red algae do you men cyno bacteria? If it is cyno, use a small syphon hose and clean it out. As a rule, cyno favors low flow areas. Identify your algae before you take steps to treat it. There are plenty of algae identification links on the internet.

[MasonHoff]

Test the water, most often sudden changes of cyanobacterial blooms occur due to water quality changes, most likely Phosphate, but in conjunction with nitrate. Even if you test your water, the phosphate may not show up, so have your LFS store test water for even small amounts of phosphate. (used crushed coral next time, there is nothing live about live sand) and you can mix up crushed coral with out a "dust cloud" like with sandbeds.

What Makes Slime Algae Grow and Solutions For Eliminating This Problem

We suggest that you don't try to put all of these solutions into action at one time, because if you do, when the problem subsides you'll never really know where the problem was coming from and which solution worked to fix it. Start with one solution and see what results you get, and if that one doesn't work, try another one, and so on, until the problem is resolved. Now, in order for all forms of algae to grow, they require only two things; light and nutrients.

• Lighting: The use of improper bulbs, lack of maintenance, and extended lighting hours are contributors that can lead to all sorts of algae problems. While these organisms do well in the 665 to 680 nanometer (nm) wavelength range, they are quite active bewteen the 560 and 620 nm range as well.
  • Solutions: Only use bulbs that are designed for aquarium use, run the lights 8 to 9 hours a day, and following the basic wattage rule of thumb, try different types of bulbs to increase the intensity and the spectral qualities of the light in the aquarium, particularly when it comes to any type of full-spectrum or color enhancing tubes being used.

• Nutrients: Phosphates (PO4), DOCs (Dissolved Organic Compounds), and nitrates (NO3) are primary nutrient food sources for red and other slime algae.
  • Phosphates (PO 4 ) are commonly introduced into aquariums by means of using unfiltered fresh tap water, and through many aquarium products that may contain higher than normal concentrations of this element, such as sea salt mixes, activated carbon, KH buffers, foods, and many other sources. Also, for established reef tanks the long-term use of kalkwasser precipitates phosphates out of the water, and these phosphate based compounds can settle on and in the live rock and substrate.
    • Solutions: Use RO/DI filtered make-up water, a high quality sea salt mix, and be aware of the elements contained in other common aquarium products you may be using. For solutions to problems that can arise from using kalkwasser, refer to The Fishline's Microalgae article.
    Allowing excess DOCs to accumulate in an aquarium in turn gives rise to nitrate (NO3) problems. However, nitrates can also be introduced in the same manner as phosphates, and because it is the final byproduct produced in the nitrogen cycling process, it can naturally build to high levels due the lack of proper aquarium maintenance care. Another contributor to DOC/nitrate problems is when new live rock is introduced, as the curing process can add nutrients when some organisms on the rock dies off.

    • Solutions: Practice good aquarium maintenance care routines! This includes keeping the substrate clean, cutting back on feedings, regularly rinsing, rejuvenating or changing any type of filtering or adsorbing materials (such as filter flosses, cartridges, bio wheels, sponges and carbon), performing regular partial water changes, and for DOCs in particular, adding a protein skimmer (read reviews & compare prices). For those with systems that have been running for some time and use wet/dry trickle type filters, the bio media in them, especially bio balls, are real nitrate factories, and therefore should be carefully rinsed and cleaned periodically.
    • While most hermit crab and snails won't eat this type of algae, the Left-Handed or Dwarf Zebra Hermit Crab has been known to peck away at it in an aquarium. To help keep the aquarium bottom clean and tidy add some tank friendly algae/detritus eating hermit crabs, one or two true crabs, shrimps, or other good substrate sifting tank janitors, or a fish. Scott Michael recommends the Orange-Spotted Sleeper Goby (Valenciennia puellaris) as being the best.
    • When adding live rock, take the time to cure it properly.
    • Important Note: If your tank is still cycling, DO NOT add any new animals, do ANY water changes, or perform ANY MAJOR substrate or filter cleaning tasks, other than to change dirty pre-filtering materials and/or to QUICK siphon stuff off the bottom, until the tank has COMPLETELY FINISHED cycling. Because this type of algae does not attach well, it can easily be peeled off and removed by light siphoning, with larger floating pieces being removed with a net, or turkey baster.

    • Carbon Dioxide (CO2): Low water flow or movement throughout the aquarium produces carbon dioxide (CO 2 ), which algae consume.
      • Solutions: Depending on the size of the aquarium add a powerhead or two (Read Reviews & Compare Prices), install a wavemaker or surge device (Read Reviews & Compare Prices), and/or increase the flow rate or efficiency of the filtration system.

    [*]

    By putting into action any of these solutions, as the growth sources are being eliminated you should see a gradual decrease in the growth of the slime algae. In the meantime, while you determine and correct the actual cause underlying the problem, the unsightly algae can manually be removed as mentioned above.

    One final interesting note is that because slime algae consume nitrates, often when aquarists perform nitrate tests, the readings come up as normal. Don't be deceived. If you were to remove the algae temporarily before putting into action any of the above solutions, in all likelihood you will see a rise in the nitrate levels in the aquarium. It's like a Catch 22. The nitrates have actually been there all along, but unreadable as the algae is feeding on it, therefore the nitrates appear to be in check. This applies to many other forms of algae as well!

    • [*]

Edited July 10, 2011 by MasonHoff

[MasonHoff]

oh yeah and keeping you system running with a mix of chemi pure elite and purigen. from now on or running some rowaphos in a reactor column will and youll eventually rid you problem. do you have a skimmer? what type of tank? and how often do you do filter media changes?

Edited July 10, 2011 by MasonHoff

[MasonHoff]

what are your water nitrate and phosphate levels??

[DerrickH]

If its cyano which it sounds like since you mention the bubbles in it, use chemiclean red slime remover. RCA stocks it. Dose...wait...40% waterchange (mandatory)...done. Ive had to use it 3 times. Dont be surprised if you have a GHA outbreak right afterwards.

Any time you stir up the sand bed, you may get cyano and then GHA to follow normally. Also, if you dont have any cleaners e.g. snails, hermits, urchins, stars, or cleaner shrimp, your going to end up with cyano and all kinds of other nasties. I recommend a couple snails at first and then monitor it. Overfeeding and extended light periods are going to be your worst enemies. Ive been battling hair algae, cyano, and a couple other nasties for a while, and now have a handle on it. Phosphates will end up in your tank from almost any source. Get them under control and you will have a much easier time. I had problems with hair algae till I ran a gfo reactor.

Any time a shrimp molts, he is going to stay in one spot till his exoskeleton hardens back up, he would be a nice soft snack for a fish if he went jaywalking

It sounds as though your pretty new to this hobby, I hope that doesn't offend you, Im still pretty green myself. Patience, research, and more patience are the key ingredients to this hobby.

[fishface]

Thanks SO much for all of your help. I believe the red gunk was there when I purchased the live rock. We simply got a pair of tweezers and really gently pulled it off. Everything looks good now. We will keep checking all levels, but for now everything is hunky-dory.

Thanks again for all of your advice!

[MasonHoff]

your iive rock maybe have been thru bad water conditions that have cause it to be leaching uhealty phosphates! where did you get it?

Thanks SO much for all of your help. I believe the red gunk was there when I purchased the live rock. We simply got a pair of tweezers and really gently pulled it off. Everything looks good now. We will keep checking all levels, but for now everything is hunky-dory.

Thanks again for all of your advice!

[Aqua-Dome]

(used crushed coral next time, there is nothing live about live sand)

What do you mean there is nothing live about live sand? Depending on the grade, all "live sands" contain AT LEAST live nitrifying bacteria. More natural sands like CaribSea Ocean Direct have many natural microorganisms. Furthermore, there is nothing live about any crushed coral, so why are you comparing the two? A finer medium than crushed coral allows for a wider range of marine life, from tiny sifting organisms that aerate the substrate to more apparent tank inhabitants like sifting gobies and wrasses that sleep under the sand at night.

[Elizzy]

Thanks SO much for all of your help. I believe the red gunk was there when I purchased the live rock. We simply got a pair of tweezers and really gently pulled it off. Everything looks good now. We will keep checking all levels, but for now everything is hunky-dory.

Thanks again for all of your advice!

The cyano I have dealt with had to be siphoned out - I could've never pulled it out with tweezers which makes me think maybe you were removing coralline algae -- my coralline starts off red and then turns pink.

[MasonHoff]

(used crushed coral next time, there is nothing live about live sand)

What do you mean there is nothing live about live sand? Depending on the grade, all "live sands" contain AT LEAST live nitrifying bacteria. More natural sands like CaribSea Ocean Direct have many natural microorganisms. Furthermore, there is nothing live about any crushed coral, so why are you comparing the two? A finer medium than crushed coral allows for a wider range of marine life, from tiny sifting organisms that aerate the substrate to more apparent tank inhabitants like sifting gobies and wrasses that sleep under the sand at night.

From a friend shane from fishy business

I don't think there is anything "live" about live sand. Mid Summer of 2009, I went outside to help my delivery truck driver unload my supplies. As I jumped up into the back of his 18 wheeler, I thought I was going to pass out from the extreme heat. When I said something to the driver, he pointed out a thermometer stuck to the wall on the inside of his truck. The temperature was 132 degrees! Among the supplies he was carrying, I noticed a pallet full of live sand. Is it possible that this sand could still be alive in 132 degree heat? NO WAY! Unlike live rock, which is shipped and treated like livestock with heat or cool packs, live sand is shipped as though it were a dry good. Now, when you pour this sand in your aquarium, you are dumping a bunch dead waste into it. This is no way to start a new aquarium. But let's say you were to get your hands on some real live sand. I have to ask, why are you using it anyway? If you are using it for biological filtration, you would have to flow water through it. Weather you use it in the bottom of your aquariumor in a refugium, you cannot flow water through it. As the sand sits, undisturbed, it becomes hard and begins to form and trap nitrates and phosphates. If you try to stir it, you will release pockets of these toxic gases which could easily damage your livestock or system If left undisturbed, the nitrates and phosphates accumulate and surface in your aquarium as red slime or cyanobacteria. A very toxic algae which robs oxygen from the water column which slowly suffocates your fish and coral and most importantly, damages your live rock. As your live rock becomes saturated with these gases, it looses it's ability to keep up biologically. Your oxygen level drops, the toxic levels go up and your aquarium crashes. The moral of this story is....DON'T USE LIVE SAND! And remember, even if you use dry sand or crushed coral, keep no more than 1" in small tanks and no more than 2" in large tanks.

Edited July 16, 2011 by MasonHoff

[+etannert]

Mason, sand BECOMES live in your aquarium. Just like live rock - can start out dry or dead and becomes live over time. Just because the sand might start out dry, dead, killed off in a bag, etc., doesn't mean it doesn't become live. Your crushed coral does the same thing. Shane has plenty of good advice but my number one complaint with him is that he's not open-minded about the fact that there are lots of different ways to do things, as evidenced by the thousands if not millions successful tanks in the world using all sorts of combinations of substrate, rock, corals, dosing, water sources, livestock, etc. His way is not the only way.

[wa1tx]

+10 etannert

Agree 100%

[Aqua-Dome]

I’m sorry that some people try to translate things that may seem logical to them into fact, without doing any research. There are two basic types of “LIVE” bacteria products on the market for establishing beneficial bacteria in aquaria. They are both called live because they are NOT DEAD. But they are quite different in production, storage, shelf life, transportation requirements, etc. One form, which for the sake of explanation I will call LIVE live, is found in products like Fritzyme 360/460, Dr. Tims, formerly Biospira (I say formerly because after Marineland was sold I can not speak with certainty of BioSpira at this time). LIVE live cultures of nitrifying bacteria are active cultures in liquid form, they have a much shorter shelf life measured in months, keeping them refrigerated maximizes their shelf life. These products are sensitive to temperature extremes, and must be kept cool and shipped cool. The other form I will call DORMANT live. This is the form found in all non-refrigerated products that claim to cotain beneficial nitrifying bacteria, such as Stabilty, Cycle, Fritzyme 7/9, and I believe TLC, and Live sand/substrate products. They are products in which the live bacteria are kept in a dormant stage for the very purpose of maintaining efficacy over longer periods of time, over wider temperature ranges, by companies well versed in the transportation issues of distance, climates, truck temperatures, and such. Live sand is viable in the bag for at least 2 years, and temperatures into the 130’s. Although it is true that prolonged exposure to temperatures above 130 will in effect pasteurize the product, these extreme conditions are not reached in the normal course of a wholesaler’s deliveries to a retailer. I have no reservations about selling DORMANT live products, I trust most of the companies that produce nitrifying bacterial products, and I trust all the ones we carry, including live substrates.

Gary - Austin Aqua-Dome

[MasonHoff]

i agree with everything you said! and i completely understand how substrate works and the biological function it serves! but sand is harder to work with. you cant stir it up if you need to with out a "dust storm" in your tank, it clumps up. and ive seen so many people with sand bed that have cynao. or a nitrate problem. plus why would you buy 'live sand' as it says. if it is not live at all (cause you pay extra) when you could by regular sand (if thats your preferred choice). and you are right there a ton of methods of reef keeping. and its depends what you are planning to do with your tank or reef, and which methos that would work best for you. in which i was only giving my opinion on buying sand over cc. I agree i cannot tell shane some of the things i do in my tank cause he would not agree. and he would stop giving me information cause im not doing things "his way" (if its not his idea, its a bad idea) but i have seen time after time, of people that are miss informed about things. And I am giving my opinion. there is a reason people have problems keeping their reef healthy. its because they dont learn of all the multiple methods of action. and weigh and balance what is best for their reef. and what they want in the future out of their reef.

Mason, sand BECOMES live in your aquarium. Just like live rock - can start out dry or dead and becomes live over time. Just because the sand might start out dry, dead, killed off in a bag, etc., doesn't mean it doesn't become live. Your crushed coral does the same thing. Shane has plenty of good advice but my number one complaint with him is that he's not open-minded about the fact that there are lots of different ways to do things, as evidenced by the thousands if not millions successful tanks in the world using all sorts of combinations of substrate, rock, corals, dosing, water sources, livestock, etc. His way is not the only way.

[MasonHoff]

and great info gary. thank you for the lesson! i enjoy learning the things i dont

I'm sorry that some people try to translate things that may seem logical to them into fact, without doing any research. There are two basic types of "LIVE" bacteria products on the market for establishing beneficial bacteria in aquaria. They are both called live because they are NOT DEAD. But they are quite different in production, storage, shelf life, transportation requirements, etc. One form, which for the sake of explanation I will call LIVE live, is found in products like Fritzyme 360/460, Dr. Tims, formerly Biospira (I say formerly because after Marineland was sold I can not speak with certainty of BioSpira at this time). LIVE live cultures of nitrifying bacteria are active cultures in liquid form, they have a much shorter shelf life measured in months, keeping them refrigerated maximizes their shelf life. These products are sensitive to temperature extremes, and must be kept cool and shipped cool. The other form I will call DORMANT live. This is the form found in all non-refrigerated products that claim to cotain beneficial nitrifying bacteria, such as Stabilty, Cycle, Fritzyme 7/9, and I believe TLC, and Live sand/substrate products. They are products in which the live bacteria are kept in a dormant stage for the very purpose of maintaining efficacy over longer periods of time, over wider temperature ranges, by companies well versed in the transportation issues of distance, climates, truck temperatures, and such. Live sand is viable in the bag for at least 2 years, and temperatures into the 130's. Although it is true that prolonged exposure to temperatures above 130 will in effect pasteurize the product, these extreme conditions are not reached in the normal course of a wholesaler's deliveries to a retailer. I have no reservations about selling DORMANT live products, I trust most of the companies that produce nitrifying bacterial products, and I trust all the ones we carry, including live substrates.

Gary - Austin Aqua-Dome

[+etannert]

I would love to see any evidence you have seen that a sand bed causes cyano or nitrates. I would argue that since most people use sand, you are going to have a greater number of sandbed tanks with these problems, even though the percentage of people using sand who have these problems is probably the same as the percentage of people using CC who have these problems. Overfeeding, lack of flow, and general poor husbandry are much more likely culprits than the type of substrate one chooses. But that's just my opinion.

For those considering using a sand bed instead of CC: I've never had problems with sand clumping in my tank and the only thing stirring it up is my CUC. And I don't get a dust storm if I stir it up a little (for instance, to move a frag).

[MasonHoff]

I would love to see any evidence you have seen that a sand bed causes cyano or nitrates. I would argue that since most people use sand, you are going to have a greater number of sandbed tanks with these problems, even though the percentage of people using sand who have these problems is probably the same as the percentage of people using CC who have these problems. Overfeeding, lack of flow, and general poor husbandry are much more likely culprits than the type of substrate one chooses. But that's just my opinion.

For those considering using a sand bed instead of CC: I've never had problems with sand clumping in my tank and the only thing stirring it up is my CUC. And I don't get a dust storm if I stir it up a little (for instance, to move a frag).

their will never be hard evidence. like a said it is opinion. but id trust someone that has been reefing for 20 plus years. plus every LFS store that has tanks without any persistant problems (i.e. bubble algae, cyano, and others) that i have visited, use crushed coral. just look around. and if sand was so good why dont you see it in their tanks. just ponder on quote below! and yes some animals need sandbeds! but if i was asked to weighing the good and bad of the two. i think cc would work best! and like i agreed to this is one of many ways to do things.

but if you want it for the nitrifying bacteria why wouldnt you just add somthing like TLC or stability.

and again

If you are using it for biological filtration, you would have to flow water through it. Weather you use it in the bottom of your aquariumor in a refugium, you cannot flow water through it. As the sand sits, undisturbed, it becomes hard and begins to form and trap nitrates and phosphates. If you try to stir it, you will release pockets of these toxic gases which could easily damage your livestock or system If left undisturbed, the nitrates and phosphates accumulate and surface in your aquarium as red slime or cyanobacteria

Edited July 17, 2011 by MasonHoff

[MasonHoff]

which is before someone goes and gets worked up, that was just my opinion.

I would love to see any evidence you have seen that a sand bed causes cyano or nitrates. I would argue that since most people use sand, you are going to have a greater number of sandbed tanks with these problems, even though the percentage of people using sand who have these problems is probably the same as the percentage of people using CC who have these problems. Overfeeding, lack of flow, and general poor husbandry are much more likely culprits than the type of substrate one chooses. But that's just my opinion.

For those considering using a sand bed instead of CC: I've never had problems with sand clumping in my tank and the only thing stirring it up is my CUC. And I don't get a dust storm if I stir it up a little (for instance, to move a frag).

their will never be hard evidence. like a said it is opinion. but id trust someone that has been reefing for 20 plus years. plus every LFS store that has tanks without any persistant problems (i.e. bubble algae, cyano, and others) that i have visited, use crushed coral. just look around. and if sand was so good why dont you see it in their tanks. just ponder on quote below! and yes some animals need sandbeds! but if i was asked to weighing the good and bad of the two. i think cc would work best! and like i agreed to this is one of many ways to do things.

but if you want it for the nitrifying bacteria why wouldnt you just add somthing like TLC or stability.

and again

If you are using it for biological filtration, you would have to flow water through it. Weather you use it in the bottom of your aquariumor in a refugium, you cannot flow water through it. As the sand sits, undisturbed, it becomes hard and begins to form and trap nitrates and phosphates. If you try to stir it, you will release pockets of these toxic gases which could easily damage your livestock or system If left undisturbed, the nitrates and phosphates accumulate and surface in your aquarium as red slime or cyanobacteria