The Great Mr. Saltwater Tank LED Experiment

[+Hydro]

The tank in the corner is going to be more greatly affected by low frequency sound vibrations so you will have to refrain from playing booty bass music during the course of the study.

Booty bass music has been implicated in the retardation of growth of SPS where polyps attempt to drop it like its hot and, as a result fall, off their plugs.

that's funny. i'm sure Mike bumps to rap all the time!

Bumps to rap? Man you are white

[pbnj]

I see a Mr. Saltwatertank video in the making.

[+mcallahan]

I see a Mr. Saltwatertank video in the making.

I'm sure Hydro could be up for a "Honky Tonk Ba-donk-a-donk" remake!

[JasonJones]

Mike,

Fair enough. When I see experiment I automatically go into the how can I prove something or determine what is best mode. If you just want to prove that LEDs can sufficiently grow coral, that is always fun to do too.

I just get concerned when I see things like this because people may see the end results and jump to conclusions that aren't justified when something is only a correlation and not a causation.

I think it would be pretty simple to set up an experiment that would easily lower the number of variables. For example, take two twenty gallon high tanks, plumb them exactly the same into a common sump, put in the same power head and use some number of PVC stands at the same heights to hold x number of corals. Place all the pumps and returns in the same place and throw the different lights above each tank. You can take roughly equal size frags from the same colonies to put into each tank. The only real variable then is the lights.

[JasonJones]

Hydro- To your earlier question about dimming. The LEDs are run off multiple drivers (equate to ballasts) and each color is driven independently. So you can put the whites at 100% and the blues at 80%, or whatever you determine of each is best. If you determine the whole fixture is too bright, you can turn both colors down and then readjust to the color balance you like, say 40% power for white and 60% for blue, etc.

[subsea]

Interesting comparisons.

I recently made a fixture out of compact florescent bulbs. The 16W bulbs which put out 65W of luminas. I have used them for years in my refugiums. They do a nice job at 6500K of growing coral and seaweed. I used a 1" by 4" and drilled hoses to mount the socket. My 4' 1 by 4 has ten bulbs at a consumption of 150W. The bulbs cost $10 each and the dampprrof socket cost $5 each. At $150 it is very proficiant at producing PAR. Without a doubt, it blows away four T5 with a fixture of $400. From my point of view, there is no comparison because economics drives my decision. While I would not recommend it in our display tanks, I would have no problem with it.

It is my opinion that there is much "to do" about lighting in this hobby. It is one of the more expensive componants. Up front cost are high and energy consumption are high. At the March Meeting, I put my PAR meter under Mike's 250W MH. It pegged my meter on overload. I went outside to calibrate against the sun. On a cloudy afternoon the PAR readings were around 900. At 6" of air gap the 250W pegged the meter at 2500 PAR. Until, I was 6" undrwater with the sensor, the PAR readings were consistantly measured without default off. His PAR readings at the botom of a 30" tank were well over 600 which is the PAR readings at the top of my tank. More light is not always a good thing. I will not say that my tank looks better than Mike's. Both of our tanks look very good. My light out is substantially less per gallon. Mike has many nutriant pathways in his tank as do I. When it comes to growing coral, I say light is not the king. Food is the king. Feed your corals with the tank biodiversity.

Sorry to Jack the thread. I just had a senior moment.

Patrick

[+mcallahan]

When it comes to growing coral, I say light is not the king. Food is the king. Feed your corals with the tank biodiversity.

Sorry to Jack the thread. I just had a senior moment.

Patrick

I had an interesting conversation with a marine microbiologist about that. We're running some tests now to see our results.

And now back to your regularly scheduled topic discussion...

PAR meter arrives Monday! Bring on the testing!

[Timfish]

I'm glad to see Hydro's experiment finally getting done also. I would have liked to have seen what Hydro wanted to do beside having the tanks plumbed together and have the same (advertised) wattage and same color temp used for both the LED and MH. I didn't catch the wattage of the AI unit your using, I'm guessing 60 or 90 watts? Do you have a lumen rating for it and for the MH fixtures? You didn't mention using a amp meter or est. cost of fixtures and electricity so I'm guessing that's in a future installment so we can get an idea of the $ to PAR to Watt ratios? I am very curious to see how things go since PAR is a composite mteric of the total light available for photosynthesis and florescent pigments are excited by only one or very few wavelengths. I suspect there may be some big differences with some corals as I doubt the fixtures will be spectrally identical but I am anxious to see.

[Mike M.]

I'm glad to see Hydro's experiment finally getting done also. I would have liked to have seen what Hydro wanted to do beside having the tanks plumbed together and have the same (advertised) wattage and same color temp used for both the LED and MH. I didn't catch the wattage of the AI unit your using, I'm guessing 60 or 90 watts? Do you have a lumen rating for it and for the MH fixtures? You didn't mention using a amp meter or est. cost of fixtures and electricity so I'm guessing that's in a future installment so we can get an idea of the $ to PAR to Watt ratios? I am very curious to see how things go since PAR is a composite mteric of the total light available for photosynthesis and florescent pigments are excited by only one or very few wavelengths. I suspect there may be some big differences with some corals as I doubt the fixtures will be spectrally identical but I am anxious to see.

You can certainly agrue/discuss cost vs. wattage all you want, this deal is about color and growth. LED are WAY more expensive per effective PPFD/PAR than MH or T5. That is not what this thread or project is about. It is about comparing "gold standard" MH lighting to new LED technology. Spectrum-Not similar. Apples and oranges, but it always has been. You can screw a 65k, 10k,14k,20k lamp in a MH fixture...whatever you like. With the LED, you can up the blue or white or run them all full blast. So, this is not part of our interest in running the shoot out. I'd very much like to keep the comments about cost of fixtures or long term operational cost in another string. It seems that most all discussions end up in the muck over which is less expensive. Let's just put it out there right now...LED IS NOT COST COMPETITIVE WITH REGARD TO FIXTURE COST. NOT NOW, CERTAINLY NOT IN THE NEAR FUTURE. LED'S ARE NOT FOR THE COST CONSCIOUS.

I am off my soap box now thank you.

Mike

[+Hydro]

Mike I think that the reason that you are gettting people commenting about costs, spectrum, apples to apples....is because of the title to this thread. The title says it is an "the great LED experiment" and in the video Mark clearly says he is putting the LED up against your halides. I can understand not commenting on cost of LEDs because that isn't the threads nature. I think that the thread should read, testing an LED over a 2'x2' tank instead. There really isn't an experiment going on IMO. Experiment to me and probably to others means that it is a technical test comparing it against a MH (which is what part of the video is about), but really what its about is putting an LED over a tank and seeing what it will do. That's totally cool, lets just call it what it is. The experiment that we have been discussing on this forum in the past was comparing apples to apples on as many levels as possible, this isn't that experiment and that's why people are commenting about that. I hear ya and don't want to dirty up your thread so I'll keep my comments to myself.

[Mike M.]

I think it ought to be titled LED Shootout!

Now if we can get University funding, a large place like yours to set it up in, a staff to keep the tanks, and a huge sponsors...now we are talking study. Honestly though, I think the semantics do support "experiment". I think a lot of the previous dissection comes from the idea that it is a controlled "study". Experiments do not require stringent rules, controls or otherwise. Like we talked about with Don on Friday, he is "experimenting" with limited water changes, Plus Rite bulbs, and Vodka. They are noncontrolled, nonblinded, experiments. So really we are doing an experiment and Mark wasn't at all wrong to call it so. We are NOT doing a study.

I am happy to talk about this stuff all day long. It is good entertainment. The string hijacking to compare costs and report how you can do it cheaper with other types of lights...not interested. As I said above, LEDS are not and will not be a choice for the cost conscious any time soon. I see thread after thread going down the "I can do it cheaper" road and the thread dead ends.

So, I am working on completing the frag rack and I picked up the first two frags to put, one each of each species, in the main tank under MH and in Fat Jack with the LED's as soon as tomorrow. I'll try and post some pictures so you all can get an idea of where we are starting.

That cool Rainbow millie I picked up from you Friday and a Turaki I picked up from Michael D. are going to be some of our experiment subjects.

Thanks for the background on freezer compressors. You saved me a bunch of frustration and some bucks!

Sherri and I enjoyed seeing your koi pond. You have a really nice spread out there south of Elgin. I found myself a little jealous!

More to come kids!

MIke

[subsea]

Not sure why the criticism for mentioning cost. If we want to be super sensitive, then lay it out at the beginning of the thread.

Patrick

[Mike M.]

So here's what Fat Jack looks like with the new frag rack and a little live rock for interest installed. The rack is made from ABS and PVC I purchased from Grainger. It will hold just over 100 frags loaded and as you can see, has an elevation for most any type of coral. I'd like to know what varieties of SPS you all would like to see in the "shoot out".

[Mike M.]

BTW....I have been know to bump to some Enimem from time to time. I'm 40, so I probably mispelled Enimem.

[Timfish]

I'm glad to see Hydro's experiment finally getting done also. I would have liked to have seen what Hydro wanted to do beside having the tanks plumbed together and have the same (advertised) wattage and same color temp used for both the LED and MH. I didn't catch the wattage of the AI unit your using, I'm guessing 60 or 90 watts? Do you have a lumen rating for it and for the MH fixtures? You didn't mention using a amp meter or est. cost of fixtures and electricity so I'm guessing that's in a future installment so we can get an idea of the $ to PAR to Watt ratios? I am very curious to see how things go since PAR is a composite mteric of the total light available for photosynthesis and florescent pigments are excited by only one or very few wavelengths. I suspect there may be some big differences with some corals as I doubt the fixtures will be spectrally identical but I am anxious to see.

You can certainly agrue/discuss cost vs. wattage all you want, this deal is about color and growth. LED are WAY more expensive per effective PPFD/PAR than MH or T5. That is not what this thread or project is about. It is about comparing "gold standard" MH lighting to new LED technology. Spectrum-Not similar. Apples and oranges, but it always has been. You can screw a 65k, 10k,14k,20k lamp in a MH fixture...whatever you like. With the LED, you can up the blue or white or run them all full blast. So, this is not part of our interest in running the shoot out. I'd very much like to keep the comments about cost of fixtures or long term operational cost in another string. It seems that most all discussions end up in the muck over which is less expensive. Let's just put it out there right now...LED IS NOT COST COMPETITIVE WITH REGARD TO FIXTURE COST. NOT NOW, CERTAINLY NOT IN THE NEAR FUTURE. LED'S ARE NOT FOR THE COST CONSCIOUS.

I am off my soap box now thank you.

Mike

My apologies.

[Mike M.]

So seriously, I'd like suggestions of what you all might like to see grown under LEDs. I have room for LPS on the bottom and then all sorts of places to poke pieces of SPS for the obersvation and shootout.

[+mcallahan]

So seriously, I'd like suggestions of what you all might like to see grown under LEDs. I have room for LPS on the bottom and then all sorts of places to poke pieces of SPS for the obersvation and shootout.

Xenia! If you can grow Xenia, you can grow anything!!!

[Mike M.]

okay, one vote for xenia...Callahan, you must be sleep deprived. WTF? Xenia...might as well throw in a fist full of GSP.

[+mcallahan]

Actually, lets see if we can KILL Xenia. Put it on top.

[Mike M.]

Now there's an idea...If LED's will kill xenia, I'm sure it will give AI an leg up in the marketing world. They can advertise, "Killer SPS growth and KILLS Xenia"

[+mcallahan]

That's a great idea Mike!

[DaJMasta]

I hear you can grow xenia in with your chaeto as a nutrient removal system

[Mike M.]

Can you mix aptasia in with the xenia for a true omniverous invertebrate filtration system?

[BBMarlin]

How about adding a frag of a Superman Montipora to the mix? Typically a fast grower under MH lighting so I think it might be a good candidate for the experiment. Plus I think Mark has a large colony.

[Mike M.]

All right, I'll see if I can chip a piece of my superman and if not, we'll raid Hollywood's tank!