Phosphate Battle

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

I'm battling a pretty hefty phosphate issue with my tank.

Little background... I bought my tank established (2+ years up and running) end of Sept. Got it home, settled and started running water parameter tests. The prev owner had been using tap water and care and maintenence was not a priority. They had green hair algae that was... Wow... Amazing! The entire back panel of the tank was a solid mat of algae! All the visible rock was covered.

Anyway, my first water test showed nitrates-60, phosphates- 5!! Amazingly all the fish, crab and mushrooms that came with the tank seemed fine.

I plumbed in a 20g sump and a 10g fuge (with chaeto). I added a good skimmer, have gone to weekly 10% water changes (DI water from RCA) and I'm using phosguard in my sump.

My nitrates are now consistantly at 0 but my phosphates are at .5. Down, but still too high. They seem to be stuck at .5, have been there for a couple weeks.

The hair algae is dramatically reduced (still some on some of my rock), but I'm battling a mild red algae outbreak on my substrate.

Any ideas what else I can do to get the phosphates down? I exhausted the last of my phosguard, will be getting more today. It was suggested to me to do small (2-3g) daily water changes, gonna try that.

I'm getting tired of seeing the red algae every day!

Liz

[+mcallahan]

Liz-

Chances are your LR is saturated with phosphates. You removing the phosphates in the water will in turn pull the phosphates out of LR, but it will take time and therefore more phosphate remover.

I've used phosguard which worked

well and I've found granular ferric

oxide (GFO) works better. Bulk reef

supply has the best prices and size

assortment, but they aren't local. If

you need today, rowaphos works well too but is a lot more expensive. River city or aquatek sells it, not sure about

fishy business.

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

Thank you, I have been told the live rock will leach, wasn't sure if it was true! Makes sense though because Ive changed so much water and I'm very careful about feeding.

Sounds like ordering media in bulk would be the way to

go. I have been wondering if the ferric oxide worked better than the aluminum based stuff. Any idea what makes one better than the other?

Id been thinking about pulling some of my rock and putting it in a bucket with freshly mixed salt water, aerating for 24-48 hrs then testing the water. If the rock is the issue do you think it would show up as phosphates in the water? Not the most scientifically controlled test, but it would be nice to narrow down the source of my problem.

Liz

[+dapettit]

Liz-

Chances are your LR is saturated with phosphates. You removing the phosphates in the water will in turn pull the phosphates out of LR, but it will take time and therefore more phosphate remover.

I've used phosguard which worked

well and I've found granular ferric

oxide (GFO) works better. Bulk reef

supply has the best prices and size

assortment, but they aren't local. If

you need today, rowaphos works well too but is a lot more expensive. River city or aquatek sells it, not sure about

fishy business.

Dude you're on vacation. Stop it!

Oh nevermind you are stuck at the airport between flights.

[muddybluewater]

As stated above the rock could very well be the problem. Something else to think about is what you are feeding. Flake food is also a source of phos. Pellet is better or frozen. If you are using frozen, thaw it and then strain the water out. Add only the solid to your tank and see if that helps.

[subsea]

One thing that I love about this hobby is that the addicted reefers love to share there addiction. Youse guys are so much more knowed up then when I started this hobby.

Liz, the substrate can have phosphate also. Some inorganic forms of phosphate will not show up on most test kits. Use the red algae as an indicator and you don't need to test so often. Some forms of Caulerpa have the highest ratio of phosphate to nitrate, by as much as 10 fold. Food is always a source of phosphate. Unlike nitrate, which has de-nitrification (anerobic digestor in a waste water treatment facility) in our deep sand beds and the interior of the live rock. We do not have bacteria to remove phosphate. I do not consider "dilution as the solution to pollution". At best it is a bandaid. It is expensive with a large system. I prefer multiple nutriant pathways. Chemical removal with a phosphate resin, in my opinion, should be continuous as should be the use of activated carbon. For me it is mandatory because I do not use a skimmer nor do I do partial water changes. Algae is inevatable on the coral reefs of the world. Thus the reason for the herbivors on the reefs.

Just my $.02 worth.

Patrick

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

I just switched to fozen mysis & formula 2. I just have a yellow tang and an ocellaris clown that I'm feeding. Neither have much liquid when thawed. The formula 2 is in a gel base. Would it be worth it to rinse the mysis? I'm not specifically feeding my corals/inverts at the moment. I'm not certain if any would truly help what I have and I hate to add more stuff to the tank. I keep looking at the phyto/zoo plankton liquids but I've read those can really add to the bioload. I'm hoping there's enough in the water to feed everyone. My few softies include: mushrooms (red & hairy) ricordea, pom pom xenia, gsp, palau neptheaand assorted zoas. I also have a Hawaiian duster. Should I add the supplemental plankton or hold off to help water quality?

Thank you for the help.

Liz

Edited January 9, 2010 by KeeperOfTheZoo

[subsea]

When I set up my first marine tank, I used crushed oyster sheels from the chicken feed store on top of an undergravel filter. After about a year I was bragging on how well the fish only tank looked with the beautiful dark purple mat of cynobacteria. Ignorance was bliss in my case.

Patrick

[muddybluewater]

I don't like phyto, IME it just causes problems. If you feel you need to feed corals use oyster feast or similar. It can't hurt to rinse the mysis, try it for a couple weeks and see if it helps. The cyano is feeding off the phos and waste in the substrate. That is why high amouts of flow are required in a reef tank to keep it suspended in the water column until it can be removed. The other source of removal is CUC. I like skimmers for removing waste. I know subsea does not. There are many methods in this hobby to achieve the same goal.

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

Oh gosh Patrick. Crushed chicken oyster shell? That's just too funny and quite big of you to admit to doing it. I've used crushed oyster shell too, but ummm... For my hens! I think a little blissful ignorance would be nice. My obsessive researching and OCD tendencies can be a real pain.

I have CC as a substrate, came with the tank and I didn't know better and kept it. I pulled a bunch out and went from about 4" deep to less than an

inch deep. Most research pointed towards keeping cc beds shallow. I really hope it's not going to be a never ending problem. When I reduced the depth I syphoned the daylights out of what was left for a couple water changes. It was fine for about a month and a half then all of a sudden I have cyno growing.

Sometimes it feels like the harder I try to do everything right the more my tank rebels against me! Not to personify it to much or anything!!

Liz

[subsea]

Liz,

The name crushed coral can be misleading. In essense the substates available for the reef hobby are calcium corbonate, including crushed up oyster shells. Different calcium carbonates are more soluble depending on the method of formation, arogonite being the most soluble. The crushed coral which Carribsea markets is about as soluble as arrogonite. The most important thing about the substrate in our reef tanks is the grain size, not its composition. Grain size determines what lives in it and the oxygen gradiant. Because I like Jaubert plenumns, I use crushed coral in a grain size between 2-4 mm. Because of the larger grain size, oxygen depletion is stretched out over a larger area. In doing so the "faculative zone" is increased. The bacteria in this zone perform de-nitrification. They reduce the nitrate molecule to free nitrogen gas and oxygen gas. This same chemistry occurs in deep sand beds with its finer grain size but the population of these bacteria are more confined due to the quicker transition of aroebic to anaroebic. Both techniques work, each with its own pro and cons, Aquarium husbandry determines the success of our reef tanks. I think my techniques are easier to maintain. I know that they are cheaper to maintain and to operate.

My first marine tank was a Galveston Bay bio-theme. With only $175 a month for income from the GI Bill, cheap was a necessity. In addittion to the crused up oyster shells, I gatherd my water from the jetties and seined up my livestock from the local bays. During my second semester at "The Texas Maritime Academy", I took a course in chemical oceanorgraphy. With my new source of technology, I started playing with the parameters. A little base here, a little buffer there. Before long I was fighting a rollar coastal battle for stability, in the tank and in my mind. As I have now settled down, I allow God in His Creation thru Nature to work His magic: Dynamic Equilibrium. Between carbon dioxide in the air (the most abundant gas) and calcium carbonate (the most abundant substrate) in the sea, "Don't worry, be happy".

Remember, nothing good happens fast. Only bad things happen fast.

Patrick

[subsea]

Oh gosh Patrick. Crushed chicken oyster shell? That's just too funny and quite big of you to admit to doing it. I've used crushed oyster shell too, but ummm... For my hens! I think a little blissful ignorance would be nice. My obsessive researching and OCD tendencies can be a real pain.

I have CC as a substrate, came with the tank and I didn't know better and kept it. I pulled a bunch out and went from about 4" deep to less than an

inch deep. Most research pointed towards keeping cc beds shallow. I really hope it's not going to be a never ending problem. When I reduced the depth I syphoned the daylights out of what was left for a couple water changes. It was fine for about a month and a half then all of a sudden I have cyno growing.

Sometimes it feels like the harder I try to do everything right the more my tank rebels against me! Not to personify it to much or anything!!

Liz

Liz,

Depending on the grain size of the crusehed coral, less than an inch will not give you de-nitrification chemistry. As I said in a previous post, the oxygen content of the sand determines the types of bacteria and the nature of the chemistry ( oxidation or reduction ).

Have a bodacious day.

Patrick

[Reybeast]

i read this the other day, basically says that the Pacific Turbo snail likes red algea http://www.aquatouch.com/algae.htm

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

Patrick,

I researched on WWM when I initially started reading about substrate (sadly, about a week after I set my tank up with a ton of CC) and basically what I got from it was that when you have CC you shouldn't even attempt a deep denitrification type sand bed because the particle size is too big thus not allowing any anaerobic areas. What I gathered from reading <maybe incorrectly, I'm still very open to learning and doing things differently and though I love the folks at WWM they have their biases for sure and they do not like CC> is to go very shallow in hopes of keeping detritus from getting stuck and shifting down into the CC in the first place. I think it's the basic idea that you either go very deep (with a very fine grain substrate), or you go very shallow because that 'no mans land' in-between is where people get in trouble and with CC deep is bad. So I opted for shallow since I already gave the stuff in my tank. I don't know what grain size my CC is. It's Caribsea, 'mixed grain size' aragonite CC <I had one new bag still>. I'd actually like to take it down even more, in part because I like the look of a shallow bed and partially because I don't want it to be any more of a detrius trap than it has to be! My CC is pretty large grain size. I've considered slowly removing it to less than 1/2 an inch, then somehow mixing some sand into it and keeping the bed at about 3/4" or so deep. I've read some interesting info talking about how the 'sand' around coral reefs is a mix of sand and small rubble and how it works out well to do something similar in a reef tank. I just don't want to make a mess of the tank (sand storm!)! With all the red algae growing mostly just on CC I've seriously been wondering just how bad a bare bottom tank would look...

Anyway, I've taken out more than two 5g buckets worth of CC. After the last round (I removed it in stages) of reducing the CC my nitrates finally really started to drop off. Now, I can't isolate it to the reduction of the CC bed. I also plumbed in a fuge w/ chaeto at about the same time and I've had various macro algae growing in the tank (uninvited, but what's one to do). My nitrates are consistently at 0 now, but I probably still have nitrate issues, it's just being taken up by the algae and other various stuff. I'll consider my nitrate war won when the green algae in the DT starts to thin out some more. I'm winning some of the skirmishes though because I used to have nitrates in the 20+ range even with all the algae.

I am being very careful with good tank maintenance. Actually just finished up my big weekly 10% water change (and various assorted cleaning of pumps, powerheads,skimmer, etc). I'm also doing small 2-3g water changes every couple days to see if that helps with additional phosphate export. I came home from my trip into Austin armed with both phosguard and polyfilter (hadn't tried the later, it's been in the tank 2 days and is already changing colors!). I think if I can undo the damage that was done to the tank before I got it I'll be able to stay on top of the nutrient problem just fine. I'm just in the thick of the struggle to get ahead.

I hope to meet you in person at the next reef club meeting. If you don't mind, I'd really like to continue this conversation. Lighting and sand bed depth/composition are the two areas I'm still feeling like I need to know more about.

Liz

[colektm364]

I found this for ya, on DSB www.reef-eden.net/DSBs.htm

[colektm364]

I found this for ya, on DSB www.reef-eden.net/DSBs.htm

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

Thank you for the link Cole, interesting reading.

I have read some on DSBs and some on shallow (just enough to know the basic points of each and know I need to research more in depth when I can). I like the look of the shallow a lot better and it seems that all the reefers tanks I've seen have had shallow beds. Now, I don't know if they are using a remote DSB somewhere else, but I know on some they are not for sure. The only DSB tank I've seen was my own when I had tons of CC and I just do not like the look of a massive amount of substrate at the bottom of the tank.

It does seem possible to run a healthy tank with a shallow bed, so what's the trick? I've seen beds so shallow the bottom of the tank is visible in some spots (which honestly bothers me a lot less than the 4"+ of bottom sand!).

Now, I would not be opposed to a remote DSB but the only place I could do it is in my little 10g sump. Would that have any benefit or is it too small?

Something I did find interesting while reading that article is the diversity of life they were talking about in the sand bed. Even with my CC I have everything they mentioned! I have an abundance of bristle worms. I have both kinds of pods and thanks to some LR I picked up from a reefer I now have mini brittle stars (almost sucked one up while sucking up some cyano off the CC during todays water change). I don't think the CC is the best substrate, but mine is VERY alive.

Would it be worth the effort of reducing the CC and mixing in some sand? I really like what that article had to say about particle size and ease of movement through the sand for the various little critters. One of the things that's been bothering me about the CC is that it's not like the ocean bottom. I've never been diving in deep water, but I have spent a lot of time on both coasts and the gulf swimming the coastline, deep out on sand bars and in California hiking out to tidal pools depending on the tide. What I remember is that the sand was not consistently super fine. It was sand+ lots of misc other little bits (some not so good, like the beaches in Cali with tar mixed in the sand, just horrible).

I guess what I'm asking is if there is any point to adding the sand to my tank. It'd be quite an effort and I don't want to do it if it's going to be pointless or cause more problems.

Picked up several good points from that article though, so thank you again for finding the link for me.

Liz

[cmanning]

Do you have your own RO/DI water unit or where are you getting your water from? You might just want to run a phosphate test on your water source to see if by any chance is coming thru the mixed water. Sometimes we have to make sure we check our TDS meter just to make sure our RO/DI unit cartridge need to be replaced. Which by the way, it's almost time to replace them with new cartridges.

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

No, don't have an RO/Di unit yet. It's on the long (and growing) list of things to be purchased. I can't go to crazy for fear of making my husband declare it's time to end the saltwater adventure and turn my wanna be reef tank into a cichlid tank (it's our running gag... when I get frustrated I joke that I'm going to just give up and get cichlids. Heck... 125g would make an awesome freshwater angel tank too).

I'm getting water from RCA right now. I did test it and it's showing 0 across the board for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and phosphates. I talked to Jake about how they filter their water (goes through 4 DI units with a TDS meter between the last two) and it sounds really great. That's a good thought though, and one I had myself. Wish I could track the problem down to something simple like source water. *sigh*

Thanks for all the hand holding folks.

This issue is driving me nuts. Everything in the tank looks so wonderful. The water is crystal clear the corals look wonderful, the fish are great... and then there's this nasty red slime all over the substrate. UURRRGGGHHH!!!

Liz

[subsea]

Liz,

GOOD THINGS HAPPEN SLOW. Chill out a little and give you and hubby a break.

A 10 gallon remote DSB would be good for nitrates and if you use small grain size (less than .1 mm). The grain size that you described in your display is 2-5 mm. The sand bed inverts which you discribe are common for that size sand. Gravel or rubble, sand and mud are different grain sizes with different critters living in each. I would leave your main display alone (too much work) and focus on your refugiums. Consider a mud algae refugium or more simple a DSB using oolite sand (smaller than .05mm) of 6" with macro. Also consider dosing with iron to stimulate the macro growth. As seaweed grows it uses nitrate, phosphate and iron equally. Any one of those elements missing will limit the growth of the seaweed.

Slow down and smell the roses.

Patrick

[subsea]

Patrick,

I researched on WWM when I initially started reading about substrate (sadly, about a week after I set my tank up with a ton of CC) and basically what I got from it was that when you have CC you shouldn't even attempt a deep denitrification type sand bed because the particle size is too big thus not allowing any anaerobic areas. What I gathered from reading <maybe incorrectly, I'm still very open to learning and doing things differently and though I love the folks at WWM they have their biases for sure and they do not like CC> is to go very shallow in hopes of keeping detritus from getting stuck and shifting down into the CC in the first place. I think it's the basic idea that you either go very deep (with a very fine grain substrate), or you go very shallow because that 'no mans land' in-between is where people get in trouble and with CC deep is bad. So I opted for shallow since I already gave the stuff in my tank. I don't know what grain size my CC is. It's Caribsea, 'mixed grain size' aragonite CC <I had one new bag still>. I'd actually like to take it down even more, in part because I like the look of a shallow bed and partially because I don't want it to be any more of a detrius trap than it has to be! My CC is pretty large grain size. I've considered slowly removing it to less than 1/2 an inch, then somehow mixing some sand into it and keeping the bed at about 3/4" or so deep. I've read some interesting info talking about how the 'sand' around coral reefs is a mix of sand and small rubble and how it works out well to do something similar in a reef tank. I just don't want to make a mess of the tank (sand storm!)! With all the red algae growing mostly just on CC I've seriously been wondering just how bad a bare bottom tank would look...

Anyway, I've taken out more than two 5g buckets worth of CC. After the last round (I removed it in stages) of reducing the CC my nitrates finally really started to drop off. Now, I can't isolate it to the reduction of the CC bed. I also plumbed in a fuge w/ chaeto at about the same time and I've had various macro algae growing in the tank (uninvited, but what's one to do). My nitrates are consistently at 0 now, but I probably still have nitrate issues, it's just being taken up by the algae and other various stuff. I'll consider my nitrate war won when the green algae in the DT starts to thin out some more. I'm winning some of the skirmishes though because I used to have nitrates in the 20+ range even with all the algae.

I am being very careful with good tank maintenance. Actually just finished up my big weekly 10% water change (and various assorted cleaning of pumps, powerheads,skimmer, etc). I'm also doing small 2-3g water changes every couple days to see if that helps with additional phosphate export. I came home from my trip into Austin armed with both phosguard and polyfilter (hadn't tried the later, it's been in the tank 2 days and is already changing colors!). I think if I can undo the damage that was done to the tank before I got it I'll be able to stay on top of the nutrient problem just fine. I'm just in the thick of the struggle to get ahead.

I hope to meet you in person at the next reef club meeting. If you don't mind, I'd really like to continue this conversation. Lighting and sand bed depth/composition are the two areas I'm still feeling like I need to know more about.

Liz

[subsea]

Substrate and lighting are the two most disagreed on topics in reefkeeping. Many different techniques work with each requiring certain aquarium practices for success. With that said, WWM is all wet. I have read in depth about sediment. Bod Goemns who lead the charge with natural nitrate reduction using the Jaubert Plenumn modled by Jaubert PhD at the Monacca Aquarium. The driving principal was to use a substrate with 1-5 mm grain size to spread out the oxygen gradiant to increase the faculative zone where the de-nitrification bacteria work. There are many scientific papers to validate these results. Without getting into the complex chemistry of DSB which use a finer substrate with a 6" minimum, I will only say that they work due to the biodiversity of the sand bed critters. The Jaubert plenum relies on bacteria which are more reliable in my opinion as well as several PhD's, Opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one.

I really don't know or care who WWM is. I do know who Julian Sprung is. I consider "The Reef Aquarium" series of books written by Delbeek and Sprung to be the bible of reepkeeping. In the third book "Science Art and Technology several hundred pages are dedicated to sediment beds in reef tanks. As I said before, all systems can be made to work. In Julians opinion, the Jaubert Plenumn provides superior chemical and biological filtration over the long haul.

My advice to you is not to change substrate in your display tank. Set up a remote DSB, or remote mud refugium or remote Jaubert Plenumn refugium. The rule of guess was that anything hekps but that 40% was required. Remember about them opinions and generaizations.

I have all three types of refugiums. They all work. Continue with your phosphate resin use and relax. If you have to have an immaculate tank, may I offer that you get a virtual reef using a plasma screen TV.

Patrick

[subsea]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3975+4121&pcatid=4121

Red Sea's product "Red Slime Remover works. Follow the directions meticulously. I would let the phosphate removing resin do its job. However, I have used it with no ill effects and marvelous results.

Happy sliming,

Patrick

[cmanning]

Seems like your water source is in check.

Cutting back on food source is another option...keep it minimal and feeding frozen mysis (which you can rinse off) and it still holds its nutritional value for your fish.

Check for cleaning crew die off.....that's if you added any recently.

Besides all the filter media you have running, get some Poly-Filter pads (they're inexpensive)---it will help remove phosphates.

[+dapettit]

+1 with cmanning. I also run rowaphos and carbon in phosban reactor when need.

Dave-