+Mcjudge Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Currently I have a 175W MH 15k (mini stealth reflector) lit 5 hours a day, and 2 12" half 12k, half actinic Current USA True Pro LED Strips that run 10 hours a day. All of my water parameters are good, but for some reason keeping nice good looking blues in sps corals has eluded me. A more knowledgeable person than myself told me I might not have enough light. I wanted to get thoughts on that. No matter how I slice it I really love the metal halide. My thought is to just buy a new ballast use my current reflector and go with a 250W 15k bulb on the same photo period. I am so torn because for about twice the price I could probably switch to a say an AQ Vega. I am just worried it might not be enough for the sps. Does anyone grow sps with leds and is it easy? Any general advice is welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Are they browning on you, or more appropriately what are they looking like that they're not supposed to? Possibly supplement iodine. It's supposed to be key in maintaining blue colors. Are your blue corals supposed to be pastel colored or more bright like an Oregon Tort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Tons of people are doing SPS with LEDs, but I dont think that you can say positively that it is low light without looking at some other factors. While I agree that 175w of MH may be a little on the low side, I would look good and hard at your nutrient levels, specifically nitrate/phosphate and see what you're working with. There's a reason that many SPS keepers shoot for ULNS (ultra low nutrient systems), and that reason is that SPS tend to show their brightest coloration when you keep nutrient levels low. The other side of the triangle would be flow. Can you elaborate on your current setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mcjudge Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 jestep, I bought frag from the dome that was lets just say sky blue, the color of vict's signature. Within 1 month the entire frag turned green, like forest green. Now it seems to be browning out a bit I think due to location after I moved (all corals got new homes). There was a tank move in there however all my other sps are doing great. 2 kinds of birdsnest, and 2 other acropora look great. Vict, setup 2 mp 10's running about 50% on tidal mode. An eheim 1260 return. In Sump 2 cobalt aquatics mj1200's 1 for carbon the other for biopellets. 1 eheim 1250 feeding refugium & calcium reactor. Test results last night PH 8.1 Alk 3.7 calc 420 mag 1360 Didn't test the phosphates & nitrates last night... I know I am bad so I will run those tonight and respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mcjudge Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 1 other thing I have just been wondering about recently... Temperature. So live aquaria says on all fish to run 72-78. I see where most people seem to be running there systems a bit warmer than that 80-81. I am running mine between 78-79. I guess I just curious why the discrepancy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 because we're in texas, and it's hard to keep a tank in the 78-79 range without a chiller. It's not uncommon to see people running up in the 81-82 range, and it doesn't seem to have adverse effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I would agree with Victoly on temp. I have a system that has an a daily fluctuation of a couple of degrees and an annual fluctuation of 12 - 14 and don't have issues (until some ac speciallist decided to throttle my duct work from 12" to 6" wasn't even tied into the house ac system! ). After hearing your description of how the colors changed from blue to green and then increased brown I would be inclined to agree with the original assesment of not bright enough light. Ideally you could get light readings of the tank it was in (or contact the grower) and your tank to see if there is a big difference. less ideal but easier would be expierement moving your coral but give it 6 to 8 weeks each time you move it, if you could add some rock work to move it closer to the light that's what I would do first. My SUSPICION is what has happened is your coral does not need to protect itself from brighter light and has adjusted it's colors and the browning indicates it has increased it's zooxanthellea also in response. Victolly is quite right in pointing out ULNS bring out the brightest colors in corals. What is questionable is it does so by restricting a corals ability to grow it's symbiotic zooxanthellea algae which is the brown component we see in the coloration of corals. If you chose to go this route deffinitely find somebody who is successfull (three years or more I would say) to mentor you. Some corals can live without any simbiotic zooxanthellea (and perhaps someday research will have a comprehensive list) and it was research with aposymbiotic colonies of symbiotic coral colonies that shows coral with zooxanthellea remove ammonium combounds from the water to feed the algae. You are restricting the corals primary food source using a ULNS approach and altering the nutrient pathways in the system and having the ready advice of someone who is successfull with this approach is advisable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mcjudge Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Ran Nitrate & phosphate, nitrate was 0 but phosphate is at .75 mg/l. So thats not good. I quit running GFO and switched to bio pellets after the move. That explains my macro algae going crazy recently. I have also been feeding more so that could have played into it. 20ml of phyto every other day with 5 ml of oyster feast. 1 cube of mysis and some swooshes of cyclopese & some pellets every day. The color change was prior to the move and I had the frag maybe 2 months before we moved. Over feeding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 If you are running pellets, you will probably need GFO to keep the phosphates in check. When I started experimenting I had ugly cyano outbreaks once NO3 was nearly zero. This is observational, but I'm pretty convinced that excess PO4 without NO3 = a lot of cyano. Anyway, I think your tank looks really good. Probably biased, but as long as you're not seeing tissue recession, I would give it some time and see what color it ends up at. I've had a few SPS that went brown and then equalized at a better color than when I added them. As far as temp goes, it just plays into the equation. Higher temp allows the coral's zooxanthellae to grow faster. This equates to browning more quickly, but if it reaches a certain point, the coral expels it and bleaches. It's all a balance between light, heat, and nutrients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mcjudge Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Thank you Tim and Jes, great stuff there! Tim I do need the mentoring really or maybe just a good guideline reading on the ultra low nutrient system. I will search that out for some new home work... Does it work with a DSB and yes I already have one, and no I don't plan on switching... in case those other guys from the other DSB thread feel like Hijacking... Got a few good laughs out of it though! Jes interesting you mentioned the "balance" of nitrate & phosphate I was reading earlier about a guy who was actually dosing nitrate with biopellets to bring his phosphate down... Thought that was interesting. He used seachem flourish... Scares me! Could work though I guess, makes sense. And didn't know that about the temperature.. I just got a chiller (mainly because I ran my extra stuff into the garage) so I know digitally now that the temp never goes above 79. I did notice that my glass little old school thermometer really didn't seem very exact and the tank was probably getting pretty hot during the day. I will keep it all going I am just really wanting that nice crisp sky blue coral in my tank one day. Something to match my chromis, he will have to do for now. Chasing that and maybe an end to the bubble algea in my tank, need to pick me up another emerald crab or 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Thank you Tim and Jes, great stuff there! Tim I do need the mentoring really or maybe just a good guideline reading on the ultra low nutrient system. I will search that out for some new home work... Does it work with a DSB and yes I already have one, and no I don't plan on switching... in case those other guys from the other DSB thread feel like Hijacking... Got a few good laughs out of it though! Jes interesting you mentioned the "balance" of nitrate & phosphate I was reading earlier about a guy who was actually dosing nitrate with biopellets to bring his phosphate down... Thought that was interesting. He used seachem flourish... Scares me! Could work though I guess, makes sense. And didn't know that about the temperature.. I just got a chiller (mainly because I ran my extra stuff into the garage) so I know digitally now that the temp never goes above 79. I did notice that my glass little old school thermometer really didn't seem very exact and the tank was probably getting pretty hot during the day. I will keep it all going I am just really wanting that nice crisp sky blue coral in my tank one day. Something to match my chromis, he will have to do for now. Chasing that and maybe an end to the bubble algea in my tank, need to pick me up another emerald crab or 2. The reason Tim is suggesting a mentor for ULNS, is that it's not the case that if you overdo ULNS (for instance you are too vigorous with your biopellets) that your corals don't flourish, it's that you can potentially wipe out your livestock, specifically any softies you may have. DSB in your case is going to be kind of redundant, as the denitrifying capability of BP is kind of like a turbocharged DSB (surface area + carbs left over from the fermentation process from the manufacturing of BPs). You may still get the benefits of biodiversity, but it is an additional potential point of system failure (though unlikely). Question JE; so is the phosphate necessary for the BP reactions to take place? A byproduct of BP reactions? Totally untouched? I was under the impression that BPs consumed PO4 in addition to NO3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) Jes interesting you mentioned the "balance" of nitrate & phosphate I was reading earlier about a guy who was actually dosing nitrate with biopellets to bring his phosphate down... Thought that was interesting. He used seachem flourish... Scares me! Could work though I guess, makes sense. I've heard of the opposite but hadn't heard of this direction which is somewhat expounded upon below. Question JE; so is the phosphate necessary for the BP reactions to take place? A byproduct of BP reactions? Totally untouched? I was under the impression that BPs consumed PO4 in addition to NO3. Biopellets are efficient at removing NO3, but mediocre at removing PO4. In a pellet or carbon dosing, I've experienced and have read multiple incidences of very low NO3 but PO4 is effectively unaltered if not higher than normal. Moderate GFO usage can take care of the PO4. However, a downside to the carbon dosing situation is that the bacteria that consume NO3 require PO4 for denitrification. They don't necessarily consume a ton of PO4 in the process, but it's needed. If you remove all phosphate prior to transitioning to pellets, it's probably possible to stifle NO3 reduction. There's a term for the phenomena and it's fairly well documented, but someone else is going to need to name it because it's completely escaping me right now. In normal cases I think that the PO4 isn't low enough to prevent carbon dosing NO3 reduction. If I'm completely off base on something here, someone please correct me. Most of my science education is physics and chemistry but I do a lot of research so I'm fairly certain this is accurate scientifically as well as in my own personal observations. As far as ULNS goes, I don't attempt it nor am I going to try to any time soon. As much as I appreciate a skimmer and lower NO3 and PO4 levels, I do think the idea of literally stripping everything from the water to manually replenish it is a bit redundant for my taste. It's controlled but contrived at the same time. The results are often incredible, but I'm more in the herbivore to handle nuisance algae and some thoughtful combination of nutrient reduction and reasonable maintenance to keep the tank manageable. Edited October 5, 2012 by jestep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mcjudge Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Here is the thread I was reading about the guy dosing nitrate.... http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/just-starting-out-sw-beginners/74356-gfo-vs-biopellets.html Because I thought about adding my gfo back tonight. interesting reading. -M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 So sounds like the winner thus far is to try to increase the lighting oomph. Then maybe move on to GFO for phosphate redux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mcjudge Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 True that Sir! And then the 400G... Someday when my wife is okay with losing a wall and half the garage. And yes I do know we ended up talking nothing about lighting... I hijacked my own thread, but really just let my own newbsness out. Cheers to all ARC and enjoy your moonlight time! -M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Sounds like ill get my 200G around the time you get your 400G. awwwww. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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