scubasteve92 Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I was wondering if anyone had any insight into an issue i am possible having in with some of my coral. Background: A few weeks ago i bought an AI Sol fixture for my tank (thanks again Chad and Belinda!!) and everything was going great. Had gotten rid of my dual t5 fixture and got the LEDs up and running. I initially set them at 10-15% and then had bumped them up to 20-25% in the last week. Everything again was doing great and i could tell noticeable color improvement and also growth! Now: Everything is looking "kinda" bad. All of my sps have got great polyp extension still but have lost a lot of color in the past day or so. And some of my lps have not come out at all today. In the last few days i have been treating my tank for zoapox with Furan-2. I did not notice these issues until i did a 20-25% water change per Furan-2 instructions two days ago. Any ideas?? Too much light, not enough, the medication? Thanks for the replies! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Do you have a PAR/quantum meter handy? Or can you borrow one from a LFS? LEDs can be more intense than T5s, and I'm guessing there's not a lot of water between the LEDs and corals. I know nothing about zoapox or Furan-2, so I can only comment on LEDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 My first guess is the lighting also. My understanding is your T5 fixture just had two bulbs, correct? I too would reccomend getting a PAR meter (or lux meter but PAR is better) and if possible get the reading off your T5 fixture to compare to what you have now. If indeed the settings of your Sol is putting a lot more light on your corals be careful about making too many changes to fast. They have bleached in an attempt to acclimate to the new conditions and any additional changes are adding more stress so give some thought first. It can take months for a coral to recover it's former coloration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubasteve92 Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 Would they show these signs 2-3 weeks after putting the fixture up? i was under the assumption that it was a pretty quick process. I have turned the lights down and adjusted how long they are on. I will monitor the coral in the next few days to see if i still need to turn it down more. And i sold my previous fixture.. but yes it was only 2 bulbs. Also my cleaner shrimp has died in the past 24 hours. I found him last night late after i posted... I dont know it feels like everything is going to "hell in a handbasket" in my tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua-Dome Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I've never tried personally but I wouldn't put nitrofurazone in a display tank. It may very well be toxic to some inverts, and is probably hurting your light transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubasteve92 Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 This sounds like what is happening.. When I get off work this afternoon, I plan on going home and doing a 20-25% water change, adding new carbon, and turning my protein skimmer back on. Trying not to screw up anything else.. any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Would they show these signs 2-3 weeks after putting the fixture up? i was under the assumption that it was a pretty quick process. Yes, if there was a slow ramp up like you mentioned. If you get or borrow a PAR meter, one thing to keep in mind is that LED's are "underrepresented" by the meter. The meter is less sensitive where LEDs are most intense. Here's Apogee's response graph which is typical for a PAR/quantum meter. Here's a typical blue-driven white LED curve (a straight blue LED will have just the blue peak only higher intensity and shifted to a slightly lower wavelength), this chart from MARINELAND: As you can see, there's a huge spike around 450nm (that conveniently lines up with the chlorophyll b absorption peak). If you look at the 450nm tick on the PAR meter chart, the meter only picks up about 80% of that light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubasteve92 Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 Interesting, I need to see if there is a par meter in my area i could use. Thanks for the info! Would you recommend going lower than where i had it the last two weeks, or just back to where i originally had them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Interesting, I need to see if there is a par meter in my area i could use. Thanks for the info! Would you recommend going lower than where i had it the last two weeks, or just back to where i originally had them? I only have experience with anemones so far (no coral yet), but if they were happy at the previous PAR levels I don't see why they wouldn't be happy there again. Here's a great article, especially the 4. PAR and 5. PUR sections. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubasteve92 Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 Thanks! Lots of great info!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Something to note is that it is primarily *blue* LEDs that are underrepresented. Apogee says by ~20% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Something to note is that it is primarily *blue* LEDs that are underrepresented. Apogee says by ~20% That is true, but the vast majority of "white" LEDs are actually blue LEDs with phosphor coatings to make them white. They're called blue-driven white, and that's what the graph I posted above represents. You can see that it still has a massive blue spike. Here's the profile for my AquaRay Reef Blue LEDs (which use high quality CREE LEDs). Here's the profile for my AquaRay Marine White LEDs (which use high quality CREE LEDs). Both blue and white LEDs (both actually blue LEDs) have high peaks around 450nm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I would do a large water change with very well matched water to rule out the furan. Then back way off on the lighting, maybe even a 1 or 2 day blackout, and slowly increase it over the course of a few weeks or months. Bleaching means too much light and browning is too little light. You could easily see the situation you experienced. A new light, and the coral colors start to look brighter as zooxanthellae populations increase. At some point they break a barrier and they are expelled, hence bleaching. Also, temp plays a large part. Higher temps mean a lower buffer to bleaching since the zooxanthellae grow faster as temp and light go up. Just something to keep in mind as far as bleaching goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubasteve92 Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 Still at work, but i will get on that as soon as i get home! So for leds (like months down the road, when i get all of this mess fixed) what setting work best for growth? Should the percentages be pretty even or more blue than white? OR is it more of your own disgression on what color you like? I assume the last but also to keep them pretty close in percentage, it that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Monnat Jr Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I don't experience with coral, yet. There was a good (and long) discussion on LPS coral and LEDs on Reef Central. leds and LPS color changes In another Reef Central thread, a guy posted a good table for PAR readings. That thread has some info, too (both of those and this one I pretty much posted the same things). I participated in those before I found ARC, so sorry if that irritates anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubasteve92 Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 Sweet! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bige Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 The biggest thing I found with switching to LEDs is the transition time the coral need. They are very bright but may not look it. You went two weeks to full throttle. I would turn the lights back down and then slowly acclimate coral again. I had same problem and it took my coral 6 months to color back up like they were. But I had LEDs in 2008 and there wasn't a lot of info on them yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 From the horse's mouth: http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/quantum/spectralresponse.html " An ideal quantum sensor would give equal emphasis to all photons between 400 and 700 nm and would exclude photons above and below these wavelengths. The response of such a sensor is shown in the adjacent graph. The most accurate way to measure this radiation is with our spectroradiometer, which costs less than $4000. Our Quantum Meters are accurate to within about ±3 percent for common light sources. The spectral response of the Apogee Sensor used in Quantum Meters and the Quantum Sensor is shown at right. As the figure indicates, the sensor underestimates the 400 to 500 nm wavelengths (blue light), overestimates the 550-650 wavelengths (yellow and orange light), and has little sensitivity above 650 nm (red light). Fortunately, common light sources are mixtures of colors and the spectral errors offset each other. The sensor measures green light (500-550 nm) accurately, so it can be used to measure the radiation inside and at the bottom of plant canopies." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubasteve92 Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 yeah, i reduced them back from 25% to 10-15% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubasteve92 Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 ITS GETTING WORSE!! I have drastically reduced the lighting and over the past few days everything is getting significantly worse!! Is it a lack of light?? I really don't want to lose everything in my tank.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+o0zarkawater Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Can you post a good pic of the tank? I'm wondering if there might be something else that one of us might notice that hasn't been brought up. I would suspect the Furan more than the lighting though, if the bad started since you dosed the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All WYSIWYG Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I'm sure its the furan!!! Wow I would never use that in a reef tank, its a serious antibiotic that will kill all the bacteria in your tank good and bad. You can bet long exposure for coral isn't good either. You killed all your biological filtration so you could be seeing spikes in ammonia and or nitrates, have you checked these lately? You are literally starting over now, there is going to be huge dieoff of bacteria and your tank will cycle again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troypt Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Where do you live? I have a par meter and I am willing to test peoples lights for a fee, but that fee depends on how far away you are from me and the time it takes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+o0zarkawater Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I'm sure its the furan!!! Wow I would never use that in a reef tank, its a serious antibiotic that will kill all the bacteria in your tank good and bad. You can bet long exposure for coral isn't good either. You killed all your biological filtration so you could be seeing spikes in ammonia and or nitrates, have you checked these lately? You are literally starting over now, there is going to be huge dieoff of bacteria and your tank will cycle again. Yeah. I thought the teks I had read with the Furan used it as a dip, not dosing a whole tank. ScubaSteve; what method did you follow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All WYSIWYG Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I hope he used it as a dip and I'm misunderstanding. If he used it in the tank I wish that I would have seen this three days ago! If so you need to be ready for some big water changes and also need to add beneficial bacteria afterwards to seed you tank again. I suspect your parameters are off, that could have killed the shrimp or it simply couldn't take the medication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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