rgoodwill Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 A massive outbreak of ich killed almost all of my fish 4 months ago. I left the tank empty for 3 months and recently added three fish. The fish were QT'd for two weeks and then somehow broke out in ich 2 weeks after introduction into the display tank. I have tried everything in the book other than a UV light. I was wondering if there was anyone in the general vicinity of Waco that would either lend or let me rent a UV light from them. I would be much obliged. Thanks for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManImTheMan Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 vitamans, and garlic of not already being done so. kent zoe, and garlic extreme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgoodwill Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Thanks for the advice. I am about to have a melt down. I was baffled by the itch again. Well turns out for some unknown reason my heater was not turning on (tank must have been almost freezing last week). My apex unit was turning on and off properly but for some reason the Heater would not power up. I assume the internal thermostat had something to do with that. I just cannot believe that happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherita Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 You have to qt for longer than 2 weeks to get rid of any ich the fish might be carrying. Wish I had a uv to loan you, but I don't. Good luck. I have heard a lot of people use garlic extract on the food to help out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Bio)³ Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 IMHO I would go buy a UV and put it on the tank for constant use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 While UV and diatom filters remove the ich parasite in the bulk water, it does not effect the other two stages of the ich life cycle. I have had systems set up with no ich for five years and no introduction of anything for six months, all of a sudden, come down with ich. The point to be made here, is that unless you kill everything in the tank, ich can go dormat a long time. IMHO, the preferred action is to keep your livestock healthy and provide probiotics which assist livestock immune systems. The fishes immune system is the number one defense against ich and most other ailments. For people and fish, stress is the most important thing to protect against. Remove stress from the enviroment. The fish will take care of themselves. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 IMHO I would go buy a UV and put it on the tank for constant use. I would recommend this also. It sounds to me like the parasite may have been transfered with the fish. Two weeks would be about when only a few adults on the gills would have dropped off and produced a bunch of larva. I agree to a degree with Subsea but I have seen a sick fish in a tank with healthy fish spread ich and take down healthy fish that had in the past resisted a minor infestation (I have also seen fish that seem to be totally immune). Also, since you appear to be in the process of stocking your tank assume your fish are going to be experiencing stress as you add them to your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 IMO subsea and timfish both got it right. I'm not a believer in leaving the tank fallow if you have a UV light, not necessary because ich is something that never seems to go away completely....so you more or less have to learn how to deal with it. An overly stressed fish can become a breeding ground in your tank and once the population of the parasite gets high enough it can take down the healthy fish. I've mentioned before that my tank breaks out in ich sometimes, usually when I add new fish. Adding fish to a tank is always stressful to some degree to all the fish involved. Although I don't like it I never worry too much because the UV keeps the population of the parasite down so even if a particular fish is a breeding ground its not able to take down the healthy fish. There are more than 50 fish in my tank and ich parasites 24/7, if the UV isn't the savior then IDK what is. I have a powder blue, hippo, and black tang.....those 3 fish alone are literally asking for it. My UV kills 99% of every free swimming parasite that goes through it. It turns over the tank in just over an hour.....this gives very little oppritunity for the population to explode. Now with that said my fish survive the small attacks with flying colors because they are healthy and are in a low stress environment with high water qulaity. You will win with this combo almost always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgoodwill Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 taking the advice. Any reccomendation on affordable UV lights? Thanks again guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I use a sterilight brand UV, 5gpm which I think is about $250. They make smaller ones I think you can get for around $150. I wouldn't cheap out in it, it could leak on you or not perform. There are some plastic ones for less than $100 for a smaller tank but I have no experience with other brands performance. Also you must get the flow rate right or the uv will be useless. I found this http://www.thewaterguy.ca/catalog/sterilight-1-gpm-ultraviolet-uv-sterilizer-part-sc1-343.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If a multi-front approach is being laid out here, then add ozone to the arsonal. Ozone is an oxidizing agent, like chlorine or hydrogen peroxide, and in sufficiant dosage will kill the free swimming ich parasite as well as help redox potential in system. Run bulk water thru UV, then diatom filter, then ozone then carbon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If a multi-front approach is being laid out here, then add ozone to the arsonal. Ozone is an oxidizing agent, like chlorine or hydrogen peroxide, and in sufficiant dosage will kill the free swimming ich parasite as well as help redox potential in system. Run bulk water thru UV, then diatom filter, then ozone then carbon. The difference between UV and ozone is that ozone has the ability to kill everything in the tank if there is a malfunction of the equipment where UV can only kill what passes through the fixture. Ozone is risky IMO, I'm sure there is safe way to do it but I've never found it necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae52 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Here's a crazy idea. A fresh water bath when you first get the fish. Quickly acculmate into fresh water and and them back into saltwater when you first get the fish. Run UV,Ozone then Carbon,Diatom, in that order. Why? Ozone after UV will allow for an lower ozone usage. Carbon to get rid of the ozone. Then Diatom to finish the citters off. NO sand bed! Isn't that a good hiding ground for the parasite. Suppose an air stone or small power head to circulate the water would allow alittle more time in order to get the swarmers before than can attach. If you can keep them in the water column a little longer, won't you kill more. It seems like that would help somewhat if that would work just for 30 min, an hr or two. Think about it. Also about using a UV 24/7. It seems like that weaken the fishes immune system, too sterile an enviroment. Back in the stone ages when subsea and I were kids our parents exposed us to everything. Dogs, cats whatever and I promise you we were not as sick with ear-achs, allergies,etc as kids are today that are not exposed to anything. Just my 2 cents worth. Also good nutrition , and a stress free enviroment is of great importance as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae52 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 O.R.P meter will read ozone levels. You have meters for everything else what's one more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Michae52, a freshwater bath will knock off some of the parasites but not the adults that have burrowed into the skin, there's nothing that can be done to kill them. Ken Feldman has some research (JasonJones posted a thread a few weeks ago) that looked at the effect of UV on bacteria and found it did not alter the bacteria population in a tank but skimming does. Diatom filtering will remove the larval stage but as it's filtering to a nominal 1 micron it will be removing a lot of bacteria also (if it was not for the fact they are so effecient they clog very quickly this could be very beneficial in a quarintine tank since the bacteria that are needed for dealing with ammonia and nitrites are benthic and should not be removed by diatom filtration). Ozone also will kill bacteria and anything live it comes in contact with (again potentially useful as it may reduce or prevent the spread of pathogens in the water if properly used). The cyst stage that drops off the fish doesn't care if there is sand or not and may not always drop off the fish but particularly in the gills might stay lodged on the fish so I see the benefit of sand outweighing a bare bottom. Personally I think a UV is the easier more reliable approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Here's a crazy idea. A fresh water bath when you first get the fish. Quickly acculmate into fresh water and and them back into saltwater when you first get the fish. Run UV,Ozone then Carbon,Diatom, in that order. Why? Ozone after UV will allow for an lower ozone usage. Carbon to get rid of the ozone. Then Diatom to finish the citters off. NO sand bed! Isn't that a good hiding ground for the parasite. Suppose an air stone or small power head to circulate the water would allow alittle more time in order to get the swarmers before than can attach. If you can keep them in the water column a little longer, won't you kill more. It seems like that would help somewhat if that would work just for 30 min, an hr or two. Think about it. Also about using a UV 24/7. It seems like that weaken the fishes immune system, too sterile an enviroment. Back in the stone ages when subsea and I were kids our parents exposed us to everything. Dogs, cats whatever and I promise you we were not as sick with ear-achs, allergies,etc as kids are today that are not exposed to anything. Just my 2 cents worth. Also good nutrition , and a stress free enviroment is of great importance as well. I'm sure that would probably work, just seems like overkill. Also FW dipping a new fish is risky, you have the stress of it being caught, bagged, possibly shipped, then if you FW dip it.....may be to much stress for some fish. After what I just went through with my triggers I would never do that to a new fish. If you are putting them in a QT just use copper for the first 2 weeks then rely on the UV...way easier and less expensive than the ozone generator, ORP meter, carbon etc. Also yes an ORP meter is just another meter but its also a meter that is expensive, sensitive, and needs to be calibrated. Its another meter that can go out, one more piece of equipment that needs to be monitored. I bought mine with my reefkeeper and from day one until now it has never worked properly, I gave up on it. If your carbon expires then the ozone won't be absorbed and it passed in to the tank....one more thing to monitor. With the UV running 24/7, it only kills what passes through it. It doesn't kill bacteria that is on the surfaces of the tank so the tank isn't sterile, just the water that exits the UV is actually sterile. Personally I don't want to expose my fish to disease and parasites to make them stronger, I would rather not expose them at all to disease or parasites. I wouldn't try to boost my immune system by going to the hospital and driking after everyone, doesn't make sense. Lets not make this harder than it has to be, especially for people new to the hobby. A properly sized UV, with the proper flow rate, good nutrition, and low stress is proven to be enough to keep fish from being overwhelmed by ich. Low stress and good nutrition is a given and should cost anything extra, a UV and pump can be bought for less than $150...for smaller tanks less than $100. Telling people to go get ORP meter, ozone generator, diatom filter, carbon filter, with UV is just not necessary. Its expensive and complicated and requires maintence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae52 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 You know every parasite that you kill is 1000's less that will be born. I would never put all that stuff that I was talking about on my tank. Timfish do you have a UV, have you ever used a Vortex. First thing I read on this web site when a fish dies, did you distrub the sand bed. What do you think is that black stuff in the sand. Ask Patrick what happens if you are drilling and you hit a h2s pocket. I was messing with fish when stainless steel framed aquariums were the norm. Without thinking about a problem and looking at different angles you will always beat a dead dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae52 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I wasn't saying that you had to get everything in the world. But then, I do not buy fish that just arrived at a fish store the day before and when they die ask for a refund. Talk about stress. And I am suggesting that maybe you can kill a few more parasites by keeping them in the water column longer. I am just running a 34 gal SeaMax with 7 fish in it and you are running a 440 with 50 fish, but I haven't had inch,tail rot, or anything else. I guess I am just lucky. Parents used to expose there children to measles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 . . . Timfish do you have a UV, have you ever used a Vortex. . . I much prefer to use UV to ozone or diatom. My ojections to ozone are the same as Hydro's above, not saying it won't work, I can certainly see the argument for using it, just from my experiences UV is simpler and properly sized works very well. I actually have a Vortex and for polishing the water with diatomacious earth and powdered carbon you can't beat it. I've also used the magnum 330 and used a 2' tall diatomacious canister filter for a pool. My objection is diatom filters clog quickly and are messy to clean again a properly sized UV is simpler and will control parasites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I wasn't saying that you had to get everything in the world. But then, I do not buy fish that just arrived at a fish store the day before and when they die ask for a refund. Talk about stress. And I am suggesting that maybe you can kill a few more parasites by keeping them in the water column longer. I am just running a 34 gal SeaMax with 7 fish in it and you are running a 440 with 50 fish, but I haven't had inch,tail rot, or anything else. I guess I am just lucky. Parents used to expose there children to measles. Probably not just luck, I doubt that you have the type of fish that I have in my tank. I'm sure being in the hobby since its birth you probably know that some types of fish are harder to keep and are more prone to disease than others. In a 34 gallon you probably don't have tangs, puffers, or anthias like I do. The odds of me having a problem are much higher because of this. In my 55 gallon QT for example there is a copperband, yellow tang, hippo tang, angelfish, pipefish and a dragon wrasse...all of which are probably more sensitive than the fish in your tank. The triggers arrived with fin rot, being that the fish you purchased didn't have a bacterial infection I would consider lucky esepcially if you are QTing them. Out of the dozens and dozens of fish that I have QTed this was the first time I have ever seen this disease in person, is that bad luck? No its not, its bound to happen sooner or later with the volume of fish that I have dealt with. Exposing a fish to ich doesn't make it immune to ich in the future, in fact I don't know of any disease or parasite that if you expose your fish to it makes it immune to future exposures. May have worked for measles in humans but I don't think that it works that way with fish to my knowledge. Besides 90% of the fish in our tanks are wild caught, the point being that they were probably already exposed to many different parasites and bacteria before they made it to our tanks. Saying that offering a fish disease and parasite free water will lower their immune system just isn't good information to pass along to people, especially coming from a person presenting themselves as having years and years of experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bimmerzs Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 WoW.....since the OP already has a QT setup, why not just hypo the fish in there for 6-8 weeks then reintroduce to the DT after bringing them back up from hypo. It's free except for the time spend doing so. Running UV is fine but it will never fully break the ich life cycle and it will still be in your tank, keeping the fish healty and well fed with pristine water parameters will definately help but erradicating ich and then following proper QT/hypo'g of new arrival's is key imo. Cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae52 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 No one ever said to expose the fish to ich. Just saying if the water is too sterile the fish will not build up any resistance to anything. No, tangs in my tank at present. But I have had Naso, Acanthurus, etc in the past fot very long periods. That was back in the day when the fools used cyancide to catch the fish. It was much harder then. I know what I can put in a smaller tank, so why would I put a tang in such an enclosed area. Whatever, I do not know you, but just because you have a large tank doesn't make you some stud. I just turned 60 and even though I haven't had a tank for awhile doesn't mean that I haven't any common sense. I quit renting fish a long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae52 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I agree with you bimmerzs Some common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgoodwill Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 My experience is that a fresh water dip actually stresses the fish out and hurts them more. I have been feeding them food soaked in garlic and they appear to be fighting off the ich but I will take more measures for safety. I actually believe the FW dip is what killed them by weakening their immunity with my previous fish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hydro Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Whatever, I do not know you, but just because you have a large tank doesn't make you some stud. I just turned 60 and even though I haven't had a tank for awhile doesn't mean that I haven't any common sense. I quit renting fish a long time ago. My big tank isn't what makes me a stud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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