I am a Fish Murderer...

[lotusstar]

Hey everyone,

Let me start off with a few basics. I bought a 92g corner tank May of 09. So few months shy of 2 years. The tank was already an established reef and came with several fish and corals. The tank came with a blue tang, maroon clown, coral beauty angel, and something else that I can't remember. About July I bought another fish, believe it was a poor man moorish idol. Introduced it to the tank and all seemed well for a month then one day everything was dead. The previous night they all ate, next morning everything was dead and covered in a stringy translucent gel. So disappointed and had no idea what killed them I let the tank sit for a couple of months. I was advised to run it fallow for 6-8 weeks so I did 8 weeks.

In the mean time I set up a QT tank, also something I was advised to do. Nothing elaborate, just a simple tank that was easy to maintain. I bought a pair of clowns that sat in QT for about a month, seemed great, eating wonderfully. Introduced them into the 2 month fallow tank and they ate great for about 2 weeks, then next morning dead. Covered in the same translucent goo. So I let the tank sit empty for another 6 weeks or so, by the way. Tank isn't empty this whole time, the corals were in the tank. Nothing hard, soft corals, frogspawn, mushrooms, some leather coral, all of them have done very well, polyps extended, and look awesome. After about 6 weeks I add 5 chromis, they kill themselves off down to 2 in QT, then these 2 go into the DT about a month later. These seemed to do fine so I added another pair of clowns, they did well for a month or so, added a flame angel. Then a couple weeks later, angel is dead and clowns are dead.

I've gone through several fish, probably a total of 4 or 5 clowns, 2 flame angels, royal gramma, poor mans idol, powder blue tang, coral beauty angel, a couple other supposedly "easy" fish to care for. All the fish have gone into QT, made through a month or so of QT fine, eating great, then I acclimate them to the DT. My acclimation process is pretty much what live aquaria acclimation, not the drip but the bag and adding water every few minutes. The fish always make it about a week or 2, eat fine, and then the next day will be dead. In March of 2010 I figured I was cursed so I sold off the corals I had, which strived through out all my fish deaths. Sold them all and started over from scratch, drained, rebuilt the whole tank and started new. I let the tank cycle for about 6 weeks, then added my "test fish 1", we name all the fish, and that was his name since everyone was tired of naming fish that were just going to die in a couple weeks. He did great, so about 6 weeks later I added another batch of chromis, 5 that killed themselves down to 2. These are still in the tank. I added a clam, and some soft corals, leather, frogspawn, and mushrooms. I bought a pair of clowns, both died after their time in QT. When they made it to the DT they died. So I ended up buying another flame angel, this lived for a good month in the DT, so added a powder blue tang and a clown, these seemed fine in the DT as well. Then added a yellow tang, powder blue and the yellow were a bad idea. Yellow killed the blue, that was my bad. Then one morning everything except the 2 chromis and yellow tang were dead. I attribute this round of death to a voltage leak from the return pump.

So I replace the return pump and have yellow tang, 2 chromis, then I buy a pair of clowns. 1 dies, 1 is living. A couple of I then buy a flame angel and a potters angel. I was told to introduce them together to minimize aggression. They appeared very healthy so I didn't QT them, the only fish I haven't QT. I'm rather disenchanted with QT anyway since I QT everything and it lives then after it makes it to the DT it dies. So I didn't QT. They are both eating, then 2 days later the flame angel and clown are dead. Still have the yellow tang, potters angel, and 2 chromis.

I'm sure this time line doesn't make sense I tried to remember things as best as possible. But it's honestly been over a year and half of fish death after another. About 10 years ago I did have a 50g and I never once killed a fish. I didn't use RODI water or a skimmer. Just a wet / dry and tap water with the drops. Now I have an RODI filter, 0 TDS water, I run GFO, and carbon in separate reactors that are changed monthly. I do regular water changes. I test often, 10 years ago I never tested my water except for SG. Now I test constantly, everything and can't keep a fish alive to save my life aside for a couple chromis. It seems like a 92 g is destined to only maintain 3 fish? The baffling thing to me is my corals and clam are doing splendidly. They are visibly growing, look great, polyps extended. I've always heard fish are easy corals are hard, but for me it's been the exact opposite. I can keep a few corals but and am sure I could add more. But fish are impossible? I"ve taken my water to several fish stores to have it checked out and I always get the same response. "water looks good". I'll attach my parameters, which vary rather little. My fish deaths seems to come in batches, they always make it through QT great, then usually a couple weeks to a month in the DT and they are dead. Always the same way, they are active, swimming and eating great the night before, then they just show up dead covered with this slimy translucent goo, looks like from the movie abyss, the water column. At one point I was told I had a hitch hiker killing things, so I was told to set cups in the tank and try and trap things, which I did for weeks on end, never once with any results. Doubt that would be the case though since I've left the tank fallow multiple times and rebuilt it totally once. I'm clueless, I'm just a fish murderer and frustrated as you know what. I love this hobby but I'm infuriated at this.

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 0-5ish

ph 8.0 - 8.2 depending on how long the lights have been on

cal 460-480

alk 7-

all these are tested with API, tests are not expired.

Phos I test with a Hanna checker....0.0 even though I get little patches of algae.

[cMidd]

How often do you do WC? Is the QT cycled and such? Have you thought maybe there is a parasite in the QT, I skimmed through it but it sounds like most fish are having tounle eating. Where do you buy your fish-all from the same store?

[Timfish]

Based on the corals and tests you've run it seems clear to me you have a pathogen in your display tank not a water quality issue. Not seeing the fish after they've been in you display tank after a week or two I'm guessing you have a parasite, maybe velvet or maybe brooknella. I think the problem is compounded with getting chromis, it's stunning to see a picture with a group of them but I see very few survive any length of time. (I prefer Yellow Tail Damsels, they stay small and are very active). I also suspect at least your tang has developed a resistance to the pathogen in your tank. This is speculation but at this point it might be acting as a carrier. If this was my tank at this point I would set up a 30 or 40 watt UV sterilizor on your display tank with not more than two turnovers an hour, I would also set it up so a small pump pulls from the main tank not the filter and return it to the tank.

As far as your frustration with the quarantine tank it seems to me it's actually working. One thing to keep in mind, while unlikely, with both ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) the cysts and larva can be transferred by contaminated water or corals (another argument for dipping corals).

[cMidd]

+1

[lotusstar]

All great questions Colin. I do water changes about every 2 weeks. 15g. QT is cycled. I left the qt up for a long time had some lr in there to help fish feel more at home. I do weekly water changes on qt when there is something in there. Parasite in the qt I kinda doubt because its been put up and taken down and Restarted a few times. I would thing the parasite would kill off the fish in qt if that were the case then right? I'm not sure what toulne eating is? And I originally blamed my lfs for fish deaths. I live in Temple Texas so have very sad stores here. So I bought some fish off live aquaria and have bought several from aquatek and river city. I haven't bought from the lfs in this area since discovering aquatek and river city. I like those stores far better.

[lotusstar]

Timefish. UV. I gotta admit I hadn't thought of that route. I always heard it was more of a snake oil thing and killed as much good as bad? I honestly don't know that. I know very little about UV so will have to look into that. Will be tough explaining to the wife why I need to drop more money on a tank that kills fish.

I am a bit confused however how my problem would be compounded by the chromis? They've lasted longest at about 6 or 7 months maybe? How could they be compounding tank issues? Thanks for your help.

[+Hydro]

Timefish. UV. I gotta admit I hadn't thought of that route. I always heard it was more of a snake oil thing and killed as much good as bad? I honestly don't know that. I know very little about UV so will have to look into that. Will be tough explaining to the wife why I need to drop more money on a tank that kills fish.

I am a bit confused however how my problem would be compounded by the chromis? They've lasted longest at about 6 or 7 months maybe? How could they be compounding tank issues? Thanks for your help.

UV is not snake oil for sure. But if a UV light is not used properly it is worthless. It must have the proper flow rate in order to kill 99.9% of everything that passes through. I use a 5 gpm per minute UV light in my tank, so every hour or so all of my water volume is passed through the UV. If I turn mine off ich starts to show up on my tangs and algae starts to show up on the glass.

[Timfish]

Timefish. UV. I gotta admit I hadn't thought of that route. I always heard it was more of a snake oil thing and killed as much good as bad? I honestly don't know that. I know very little about UV so will have to look into that. Will be tough explaining to the wife why I need to drop more money on a tank that kills fish.

I am a bit confused however how my problem would be compounded by the chromis? They've lasted longest at about 6 or 7 months maybe? How could they be compounding tank issues? Thanks for your help.

Sorry I didn't make myself clearer. I think you're looking at 2 different reasons your fish are dying not one. I think the chromis are dying because they are chromis and I think you would have seen similar deaths with them even if you weren't seeing other fish die. The other is the pathogen I think you have in your display tank.

As far as the argument against UV sterilizers, while I'll agree in theory with the argument they kill beneficial bugs in the water in practice I think it's totally bogus. I think another reason UV sterilizers get a bad rap is they are hooked up incorrectly. Below is a response of mine on a thread back in June, bear in mind the UV being discussed was a 13W advertised for work on a 125 gal system:

"Ongmat, friend of mine has the same UV you have and I was able to look at the manual. I've got to complement Coralife for including a chart with flow rates for this sterilizer. I've seen several manufacters who don't and figuring the proper flow rate through the sterilizer to get the needed kill (exposure) rate is just guesswork. If the Turbo-Twist 3X is going to be used for parasite control at most you want to run just 55 gph through it. Keep in mind this is for a new bulb. Assuming a 30% drop in output over the life of the bulb the flow should probably be dropped down to 35 gph. If this is being used in a 125 gal tank we're looking at least 3 1/2 hours to get a complete turnover through the sterilizer. Probably longer since each hour a certain percentage of the water PROBABLY will have just been recently filtered. Now we're looking at looking at 4 or 5 or maybe even 6 hours the larval parasites are swimming around in the tank with your fish before they get sucked into the sterilizer and get killed. Depending on the health and species of your fish (and number and species of your corals, I've seen parasite problems spontaineously dissapear in reef tanks so I'm sure aggressively feeding corals will do their part to control parasites, just can't always count on it) this may or may not be enough to break the life cycle of the parasite. This explains why in Hydro's 3 tank system only one tank was adequately protected, some of the larval parasites had enough time in the second and third tank to find host fish and continue their life cycle until he set up a bigger sterilizer. I think best results with a sterilizer are achieved when it's sized to give a 100% kill rate with one (or more) turnovers an hour."

here's the link if you want to read everybody's comments:

http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/12271-uv-light-for-mix-reef-tank/page__p__84626__hl__%2Btimfish+%2Bsterilizer__fromsearch__1#entry84626

Unfortunately if you do have a pathogen causing your problems, it is admittedly a guess on my part, you don't have many options in a reef tank. A sterilizer is the only one I know won't hurt the ecosystem or corals & inverts.

[cMidd]

Iotussar- trouble*. I agree-I am thinking a pathogen or parasite is your problem. Do a treatment of Ich Attack or Kick Ich(the organic reef safe brands). Treat it for a week, then do a 50% water change. I would do this in BoTH your tanks. It's a safe bet and if it turns up being a pathogen problem then this will help-if not no harm done. Just follow the directions on the label. Also-what are you feeding? And Chromis die because they will kill each other. They do not school unless they are threatened, it is a defensive mechanism. So when they kill each other, they aren't schooling and that's natural.

[lotusstar]

Ok so looks like I will try to find the reef safe ich treatment. I've seen and treated ich in past tanks. The only thing that's confusing about this is the fish do not show signs of disease. When I've seen ich before the fish obviously showed disease. Everything I've read and seen in tanks before is when a fish is sick it's apparent. Fish stop eating, swim erratically etc, in these cases my fish are all eating fine as well as swim fine. Don't rub rocks, don't seem to breath heavily. I spend a fair bit of time just staring into the tank, usually at least an hour a day except for weekends. So I think it'd be hard for me not to notice the onsets of a disease when these outward symptoms.

[+Hydro]

Iotussar- trouble*. I agree-I am thinking a pathogen or parasite is your problem. Do a treatment of Ich Attack or Kick Ich(the organic reef safe brands). Treat it for a week, then do a 50% water change. I would do this in BoTH your tanks. It's a safe bet and if it turns up being a pathogen problem then this will help-if not no harm done. Just follow the directions on the label. Also-what are you feeding? And Chromis die because they will kill each other. They do not school unless they are threatened, it is a defensive mechanism. So when they kill each other, they aren't schooling and that's natural.

Hey Collin, I have to disagree, I would never use kich ich or anything similiar again. I used kick ich 1 time and within 3 hours a very larger super cool scooter blenny I had for over a year died. Plus I didn't notice any reduction in the amount of ich on the fish. I swore off it then and have never needed it since, My tank has had ich on and off since day 1, every once in a while I'll get a little break out so I add garlic to the food and vitamins (Zoe) which I soak the food in for hours. It seems to clear it up within a few days. When I have some ich pop up I always double check my UV to make sure that its on and that the internal tube is clean (makes a big difference). I do agree that chromis kill each other for no apparent reason. Just keep the stress level as low as possible, turn off some lights, feed plenty, watch the water parameters, and get any dead or dying fish out immediately. Also water changes really help just don't change to much at a time, maybe 25-30%. This will get rid of some of the parasites and won't shock the tank with adding unconditioned water.

If you want to get a REAL UV sterilizer and not these toys that they sell for tanks buy a Sterilight UV, I got mine off of Ebay. They aren't even that expensive and are much higher quality than the aquarium versions. Plus they have a day counter on the so that you know when to change the bulb. Here is a link to a 2GPM

http://www.h2odistri....com/s1q-pa.asp

[cMidd]

Hydro-I've heard of other people having that problem with the Ich products as well, fortunately i have not. I also ad garlic as a supplement-it really DOES make a different with the finicky eaters. They go nuts for the stuff.

[cMidd]

Also-I don't soak my food...but if you add garlic to it I have noticed a huge difference. I have not lost any fish in my 75...and recently put a bristletooth tang in with my sailfin and hw got shredded. He's now eating spirulina I soak in garlic, and though he is stressed he is alive!

[jestep]

You could try setting the QT tank up with water from the main tank. Put a cheap fish that you still would want in the QT tank and see if he makes it. That would at least isolate that it is something in the water. I would certainly do this before trying to treat an entire 90g tank for ...something.

[+brian.srock]

Murderer is for the first time. I think you now have Serial Killer status and wanted posters should be hanging in all the LFS. Make sure you update this a couple months down the line to let us know if the UV filter works.

[cMidd]

I agree with Jestep. 100%

[lotusstar]

Brian, I've sadly gotta agree with you. I have surpassed murderer to serial killer.

Jestep, That's a great idea that I can do right away. Change my QT water to DT water and see if that does anything. I'll do that right away.

Let me ask this. You guys have mentioned garlic, which I've never used before. I usually feed a mixture of flake, pellet and even some frozen a few times a week. Maybe I should start soaking in garlic, is this just something I can pick up at HEB or some grocery store maybe? Is it garlic extract? Or is it something I need to get from the LFS?

My wife pointed out that I've changed all the equipment. I let the tank sit fallow fishless for a couple months and have even restarted the whole darn thing from scratch but I've always used the same rock and sand. Is it possible that the rock and sand could be leeching something that kills the fish? I siphon the sand every time I do a WC, which is 15g every other week. Is it possible my LR could be to fault? If so why does it only kill fish and not corals which are supposedly more finicky?

I'm also not too terribly concerned about the chromis deaths. At 4$ a piece I had always heard that they tend to kill each other off until they are down to the strong. That's why I started with five expecting to get down to 2 or 3 good ones. I'm more concerned with my other fish deaths, some fish that I've always heard were relatively hardy fish and indeed kept without incident on tanks in the past. Could my tank be the culprit somehow? The LR? I've never had a clownfish die and now I've killed 7 or 8? Same thing I had never lost an angel and now lost a coral beauty and a couple flames.

I really appreciate the help guys.

[Robb in Austin]

I like the QT/DT water change idea. I would suggest that you rinse the QT in FW before adding DT water; just to clean the QT of any potential issues already there. Maybe let it soak overnight.

[wa1tx]

I feel your pain! I killed 3 fish this week and have another on it's way out. Exact same story as yours....

[Timfish]

. . . I have surpassed murderer to serial killer . . .

If it helps you're in "good" company . Having been keeping saltwater since '88 I've killed a few. One of the dumber things I've done is not notice I had a sterilizer plugged into a power strip that was on a timer. On the subject of Kick-Ich, I've had inconsistent results with it and Metronidazole. I haven't had issues with fish like hydro but on one occasion I had Frogspawn react negatively, only expanding to about a third of normal during treatment.

I've read back through this thread and was wondering if when you left your display tank fishless you also left your quarantine tank fishless? Since you've left the tank fallow a few times you can rule out Brooknella since it is an obligate parasite and does not have a cyst stage like ich or velvet that might survive a long time. (A note on Brooknella: since it can be passed from fish to fish UV sterilization is not going to work very well with it in a display or quarantine tank.) This strikes me as an unlikely scenario but maybe the pathogen or parasite got passed from the display tank back to the quarantine tank then back to the display tank.

Another parasite to consider is Uronema marinum. One of the symptoms for it (and Brooknella) is "epithelial sloughing" and as the infection progresses ulcerations which look like bacterial infections. It also reproduces by binary fission so can reach plague proportions quickly which might explain how quickly your fish go from looking good to dying. Uronema is also capable of living without a host which would explain it's reccurence after leaving your tank fishless.

. . . restarted the whole darn thing from scratch but I've always used the same rock and sand. Is it possible that the rock and sand could be leeching something that kills the fish? . . .

It's possible but I'm never inclined to think so and in light of your corals and inverts doing well I'd say safe to rule it out.

[lotusstar]

Robb. Thanks for the support on the qt/dt advice. I actually had bought a small 20g tank I was going to set up as a beginner tank for my sons. So it's filled now with DT water and a few lbs of LR I had in the DT and have moved my test fish over. Feel like it's a sacrificial lamb but so far it seems rather ok with his new home.

Timfish, thanks for helping scientificaly rule out brookynella. It really didnt seem to be one of those strains or ich and the like because those diseases have fairly pronounced symptoms and I do really spend a great deal of time in front of the tank and didn't see erratic behavior, loss of appetite etc which is generally characteristic of those diseases.

Uronema, that's one that is new to me. And sounds quite possible as you mention it's quite to become fatal and can survive in fallow environments. The quick onset is really the thing that has me so puzzled. Lights out at 11pm when I'm heading to bed. I don't have a light timer so it's always me doing the lights and the fish seem perfectly normal. Then by 9:30-10 or so the next morning it's death city.

Let me ask a follow up to the Uronema, i promise I will do some of my own research into this. What are some possible cures? If there is one, would the garlic help that was mentioned? And is that like garlic extract I can purchase at a grocery store? Since you

Are a proponent of UV would a sterilizer help eradicate this? Also you recommended

What seems to be a rather large sterilizer. Is the "bigger the better"? What about the sterilizer hydor linked to and recommended?

And lastly, to answer the question about fishless tanks. Yes when the dt was fishless for 2 months the QT was fishless for 1 month. Then I bought fish to sit in qt a month and then be ready to move to the DT after the month QT. The qt has sat empty for quite a long while. At least it feels that way. I think that answers most of the questions. I appreciate it.

[Timfish]

Lotusstar, Uronema is hard to confirm since it can look like Brooklynella or bacterial infections. I cannot say positively I have ever seen it just it explains some scenarios better. Situations where Brooknella can be ruled out because the tank was empty of fish, no external signs of ich or velvet and all the fish were affected at the same time where I'd expect a bacterial problem to affect a few fish at a time (under the "assumption" different species would have different resistances). This is impractical for most people (fish=$, vet = time + $$$) but Dr. Echols with Westgate Pet and Bird will look at fish (fish need to be alive, it's essentially impossible to identify anything from fish that are already dead.) I have not done any research online for Uronema but my books list formalin/malachite green as the treatment of choice which cannot be done in a system with corals or invertebrates.

The sterilizers Hydro recommends have the advantage of having stainless steel housings and fittings and in theory should out live you or me. Most of the sterilizers I've looked at on aquarium websites use PVC housings that can become brittle and fail over time. This depends on the manufacturer, I know of one that failed after just two years when the owner was getting ready to replace the bulb and noticed the housing flexed under his grip, I have one that's at least 12 years old and is fine. The problem I have encountered with sterilizers is they add heat to the system and with the summers we have this can be a serious issue. While the bigger will give you more turnovers per hour you need to take into consideration the additional heat.

[afgun]

When you get it going again, a suggestion to monitor the tank is a low-light video camera, recorder and some sort of moon lighting overnight. It won't stop whatever is happening (if it happens) but at least you should be able to go back and see how things are occurring...

[lotusstar]

That is a good suggestion. Already have moonlights so wouldn't be difficult. Thanks

[lotusstar]

So thought I would make an update on my murdering status. I haven't killed anything in a couple weeks woohoo. I did the suggestion of setting my QT tank up with DT water to see if it was a water issue. My test fish has strived in the QT for 2 1/2 weeks now and done great. So I doubt the issue is water quality. So back to square one on what's been killing my fish.

I started using garlic to soak food, haven't noticed a difference but it seems the fish aren't as hungry as they used to be. Not sure if they aren't so crazy about the garlic maybe? I've been using it as directed, only 2 drops.

I had a friend who gave me a bunch of stuff when he got out of the hobby last year, one thing i found that he gave me was a UV filter so I'm going to try to hook that up. But I'm trying to figure out what kind of bulb to get, I'm not sure of what model it is and if it's powerful enough.