Best place for healthy fish

[+Hydro]

I understand your frustration and why you believe the way you do regarding LFS stock, but honestly, it may just all be due to chance. If it were true, we'd all be experiencing the same thing.

If you started asking I think that you would be surprised, I've heard my same complaint from several others too. In fact I started a thread about the tang in the picture back when I bought it. Another member pm'd me about a blue hippo that they bought the same day that was immediately was covered in ich the next day and also died.

[pbnj]

I understand your frustration and why you believe the way you do regarding LFS stock, but honestly, it may just all be due to chance. If it were true, we'd all be experiencing the same thing.

If you started asking I think that you would be surprised, I've heard my same complaint from several others too. In fact I started a thread about the tang in the picture back when I bought it. Another member pm'd me about a blue hippo that they bought the same day that was immediately was covered in ich the next day and also died.

Perhaps.

Blue Hippo's have such a low success rate. Something about the amount of slime they produce (or lack thereof) makes them the most susceptible to Ich among all the Tangs.

I think buying from other ARC members is the least risky (and least costly) of all options.

[+Hydro]

I think one of the biggest problems with any LFS is the turnover. They get fish and sell them the next day. Half the time they haven't been in their inventory long enough for an existing illness to show. But as soon as you get them home, it's just about right for ich and other nasties to show up. I've lost numerous discus and expensive fish to what I would attribute to quick turnovers. Even if you QT, sometimes the fish is a lost cause.

+1, it's nothing malicious or shady at all, the guys at the stores are super nice people and I like them alot...please don't misunderstand. I don't think that the LFS can really do anything about it other than order from another wholesaler with better quality fish. I have bought some healthy fish from fishy business, I believe it is b/c his turnover rate is slower which gives the fish a chance to calm down before being bagged up again. I even proposed an idea to one of the local stores to have a special quarantine area in the back. They could hold fish for at least a couple of weeks after purchase to let them get used to aquarium life before being moved again. I told them I would gladly pay double for a fish that had a much better chance of not dying.

[Laura]

Look what you did Steven...you made me go to PetCo today, just for giggles...but I left one happy customer!! See my new post....

[JamesL]

I think one of the biggest problems with any LFS is the turnover. They get fish and sell them the next day. Half the time they haven't been in their inventory long enough for an existing illness to show. But as soon as you get them home, it's just about right for ich and other nasties to show up. I've lost numerous discus and expensive fish to what I would attribute to quick turnovers. Even if you QT, sometimes the fish is a lost cause.

+1, it's nothing malicious or shady at all, the guys at the stores are super nice people and I like them alot...please don't misunderstand. I don't think that the LFS can really do anything about it other than order from another wholesaler with better quality fish. I have bought some healthy fish from fishy business, I believe it is b/c his turnover rate is slower which gives the fish a chance to calm down before being bagged up again. I even proposed an idea to one of the local stores to have a special quarantine area in the back. They could hold fish for at least a couple of weeks after purchase to let them get used to aquarium life before being moved again. I told them I would gladly pay double for a fish that had a much better chance of not dying.

I think this hits at least one of the problems right on the head. Most LFS are the busiest the day they get their shipments in. Obviously a lot of us would want to make sure an animal survives for a few days before buying it. I have passed up buying some Pyramid Butterflys before because they had just arrived.

The quarantine is a good idea in principle, though not sure it would work for most of the LFS. I suspect they could not tie up that much money for that length of time, as most of the stores probably are not swimming in money. I do like how RCA puts the date they aquired the fish on the tank itself.

And BTW, I don't think anyone is faulting you for the path you are taking. This has sparked some great discussions!

[caferacermike]

There is 1 good reason why the locals won't/can't place fish in the back for a QT. People like me come in and see what I want, am willing to take a risk knowing exactly what the risks are and knowing that I'm at fault and not the store, and then demanding to leave with the fish for fear that another customer will be there to buy it on the day of "release" before I can be there.

I for 1 would be the most pissed off customer you ever had in your shop if you knew I wanted that particular fish yet your employees sold it out from under me.

This has happened to me at a Pawn Shop before and let me tell you, the cops were called out and an employee lost his job and I almost got arrested. A friend that works at 1 knew I wanted a full size roll around Snap On box. He told me he had 1 coming off loan in 2 days for $450 if I bought it the minute it "popped". So I meet him there only to find out 1 of the employees was trying to buy it minutes before it popped for 1 of his friends. That was against company policy, employees must wait a minimum of 5 days after being put on display before purchasing anything from the store. We were following the rules. The guy said "no way it's mine". An argument ensued and someone called the cops. The employee told the cops to arrest me for trespass and I had to leave. He took the tool box home with him. I lost the tool box, 2 days later the owner fired the employee.

So yes that is a real world situation that the LFS don't want to have happen and that's 1 reason why they don't "hold" things in the back.

So you might counter with "I can pay for this item today, call me when it is ready in 2 weeks". What if it dies? Who loses out? I'm 50/50 with the idea that if it died, I'm out the money I took the risk. However what if later on I feel that the store wasn't trying hard enough to take care of it? Then do I want my money back? So then 50% of me says "to bad you gambled and lost" the other 50% says "maybe they could have tried a little harder".

If the fish shows signs of disease or illness to what level do you feel the shop should be compelled to treat? If they are QTing the fish, then they would all have to be in separate confines or they can just as easily infect all of the charges. Then you could lose every single fish you ordered for resale. Then the shop loses out big time. If they have to keep each fish for 1 month in separate tanks that would cost a fortune and be transferred to us. Just because you think you would pay twice as much, what about the rest of us? The hobby is already expensive enough as it is. Only some die-hard Republican would reply with "then get a different job and make more money". I'm not freaking out about how much this game costs to play, however I know that several members are just scratching out a tank. Kudos to them. I applaud them. As you can tell I root for Under-Dogs. But then what happens when a moderately priced $24 blenny suddenly sells for $100? Not to many people are going to be buying into that. Then what happens to the LFS? I'm betting that when their sales drop off 98% that they will have a hard time keeping their doors open. So now the fish shows signs of illness and are being kept in separate tanks to ensure against cross contamination, what now? Do you put it down humanely, treat it, hope for the best? With each illness requiring different treatment methods, drugs, chemicals, can you imagine the cost and who diagnoses? A vet? An employee?

I'm just tossing out some real world examples and asking questions that I'd love to hear answers to. I've heard this argument before about how shops should do one thing over another but it's as though the full feasibility has not been thought through.

All in all it's a gamble. Short and sweet. Online, or in store. I say that ultimately if you feel as though the fish you are getting locally are sub-par and online gambling is your thing, then well do it. On the other hand so many of us have had just dandy experiences at the LFS that I cannot fathom that they would be in business if it were truly "that bad". Of course if you walk into a place and look around and feel icky (that's how I feel at Gallery of pets[great birds and freshwater but SW is lacking] and at Partners) then you shouldn't be spending your money there. The big 3 in ATX have reputable standings, and the newer smaller guy seems to be getting good press as well.

If you have lost $1,000 worth of fish within days of adding them every time you bought locally, I think for sure I'd be hiring someone to come to my tank to diagnose it. At what point would I consider what the common theme was within my tank. Especially if I was having troubles after buying from all the local sources and having the same issues.

And to that thought, Hydro if you are still reading, there is a shop in town that does everything you want. Their prices are higher. They only sell to a niche market. They will pamper your every desire. They sponsor us right here at ARC. They will do tank maintenance and diagnoses for you. We all know them as "Kingfish". I'm thinking that these are the types of folks you ought to be shopping with. Anything less, well you'd just be as common as the rest of us common folk.

Seriously though, just joking, kinda. I realize that you are just trying to keep it real and that you mention that you would spend more, but are just trying to find something that works better for you right now and it could benefit us as well. But you really should consider working with Kingfish for your fish that you really want. They will cost more, but I'm sure they will be willing to work with you on a QT that would benefit you.

[+Hydro]

Thanks Mike, not a bad idea. I think that my suggestion of a QT sounds like a good idea but I'm sure it isn't cost feasible for the store. As far as the loses, you have to understand that this is over years of buying many fish, this wasn't all at one time. And as far as my tank paramters being the culprit I would have to argue that. I'm very vigilant about my tank parameters at all times and always have. Even a slight fluctuation is unusual. If it were a problem with the tank that still doesn't explain why my petco fish are still alive and others weren't so lucky. I've heard that fish caught with cyanide will sometime die after a few weeks b/c of problems with digestion, I thought that maybe this was a problem with some of them. Anyone have any input about that?

If there were a QT system at the fish store my idea was to pay up front for the fish, the fish would be moved to the back out of view of any other customers to sit in QT for 2 weeks. If the fish dies the store would offer another fish to replace it or store credit. The store would have to figure loss in to the QT price just like they do with all the other fish in the store. There is a huge markup on fish b/c the ones that live have to offset the loss of the ones that die...the same could be done for QT fish. Like I said though this is more work for the store, more sq footage needed for QT tanks, more water changes, etc...so probably not cost feasible.

[caferacermike]

From my experiences buying fish from vendors, the fish have the lowest mark up. It's the corals and dry goods that get ya. Fish have to be priced cut throat cause people will go from store to store comparing prices. Fish are a much more tangible item than a coral. A powder blue tang at one store is basically the same thing at another store. I expect the prices to be similar. Corals on the other hand come in numerous sizes, shapes, colors, etc.. that set them apart from the one sitting directly next to it. If I was to offer a "QT service" where I offered a replacement fish, I honestly would charge you 5 times the asking price for the fish, not double. The tank must be sterilized before adding the fish so as to assure myself that nothing cross contaminated, then special feeding, special water changes etc... If it does show signs of illness, should I charge you extra for the treatment or is that included in the price? I would certainly charge you more than double to protect myself in the event of. I couldn't possibly offer you a replacement fish unless it was the most common fish like clowns and yellow tangs. But then again who would pay extra for that? I could not guarantee that you'd get another one. Some are very hit and miss. Almost all fish at the LFS are there because the vendor listed them as a super sale special for that week. So if I was going to make a 100% profit by buying it on sale because they had them in bulk, and the replacement fish was now at a higher price, then my profit margin would plunge.

So many variables that I could not control, I'd charge an arm and a leg. However as I mentioned Kingfish runs a completely different outfit than your local fish store. They are not a point and bag it kinda place. They can get you the fish you want and they can handle holding it for you. It may cost a little more than regular retail, but it seems to me that you would really benefit from that sort of 1 on 1 experience.

As far as water parameters, that's not quite what I was thinking. I realize that you stated this was an on going trend and not a one time event, hence why I mentioned that I'd be looking within my tank for answers. What if the tank, rock, etc had ever been contaminated with copper or other chemicals? What if there was a parasite unknown to you living within the tank? What if other fish are bullying the new fish? Etc etc... So many other places to look other than just the obvious.

Cyaniding fish for collection is a horrible practice and thankfully is almost gone from the hobby. It is not near as prevalent as it was decades ago. Most Govts. are figuring out the additional damage it creates and are taking aggressive stands against the practice. Also many of the wholesalers have learned of where this method is utilized and refuse to buy from them. After all, cheap fish can still ruin your business. If after enough people complain about your fish not living, sooner or later they will buy from elsewhere. Most wholesalers are now joining up with MAC, Marine Aquarium Council. Mac certification has done wonders for the hobby and it's a badge for many vendors to claim MAC. There are still other places that our fish are coming in from but more and more are being sought from places that refuse to use cyanide for capture. You may have lost a couple to the symptoms of, or outright from the use of, cyanide capture. In fact many of us might have had 1 or 2 pass through our hands. But then again I don't think you lost all these millions of fish that have caused you to swear off the LFS folks from cyanide capture. Some perhaps but not all.

Another good place to consider is Epic Reef. Since Prof is not a full time commercial operation, he does not have people coming in and out on delivery day running off with fish. Many of his charges have been in his possession for weeks if not months. They should do well should you choose them for your tank. He does not order the bread and butter that the locals do. You'd be hard pressed for him to order a clown fish. He may have 1 because somebody brought it to him, but you are going to find more rare tangs and other oddities at his place. We buy what we want in our tanks that you just can't find in the other stores. Generally because the wholesale price is so high that the LFS couldn't justify trying to charge $400 or more to resell them at their profit margins.

[Jlloyd123]

i can honestly say that every fish i have gotten from petco has lived and is still in my tank after 8 months...which have been moved from 4or seperate tanks. not to say that all the fish from other stores havent survived though. my sucess with petcos fish compaired to other lfs has been higher. maybe its just our bastrop petco's fish steven, it is one of the cleanest kept up with petcos i have been to.

[Robb in Austin]

It's all one big crap shoot really. Think of the total number of fish born, then compare that to the number seen on an actual reef in nature.

We, humans, are culling some of those survivors and inducing stress and hoping they survive to the showroom, let alone our tanks.

I've had good luck from the local LFS, and moreso, from DFS/Live Aquaria and then other local reefers.

Personally, I won't buy SW, or even most FW, from Petco/PetsMart due to the shoddy conditions they keep their tanks/livestock in.

[Crab Rangoon]

I would gladly pay double for a fish that had a much better chance of not dying.

I strongly suggest Divers Den, then. To be perfectly honest, I don't care how much you may dislike DFS or think you know about them and how they handle their fish - all the rare/finicky/difficult fish of your dreams can be had through them and sold to you only after being QT'd and confirmed to be eating. Not to mention the fact that MOST of their livestock is covered with guaranteed live arrival, and everything in the Divers Den is WYSIWYG. However, when I see posts from anyone, anywhere complaining about purchasing a tang that looks to be in good health, but contracting ich within 24-48hrs in their tank.. all I can do is further preach extreme care of acclimation and QT.

All things considered, 95% of the fish in my aquarium are Angels and Butterflies, neither of which "mixes well" with it's own kind (or one another) due to aggression, and all are known to be finicky eaters & quite disease prone. All in all, I've lost TWO fish to jumping (can't blame a dealer or LFS for that), and 3 to starvation (or possibly internal parasite, since they weren't eating the medicated food that would otherwise prevent/treat it). I know that for me, it's my diligence, patience, and over-cautious fishkeeping that pays off in the end and lets me get away with what I've got going in my tank, and in good health. By that I mean that I keep fish that cost hundreds-of-dollars (each) in my refugium section of my sump for weeks or months until I think it's safe and smart to introduce it to my aquarium. I introduce it to the tank by keeping the fish in a "Critter Keeper" by itself in the tank for about a week, and then later releasing it to roam free.

I've dealt with ich being on every single fish in my tank, even all of them at once, and I didn't end up losing a single fish to it (this has happened multiple times - now if a fish breaks out with ich, it's typically isolated to just that fish & not spread to the others). I've even endured a heavy bacterial/fungal infection on one of my Angels + the fins of 2 BF's in the display for about 5-6 weeks, but still managed to fight it off without any losses. All I can say is that if the proper precautions are taken to ensure the health and comfort of a fish before introducing it to your aquarium, you should be in complete control over it's general well being. Most people are 100x more 'lax about their new fish additions and medicating and feeding than I am, and most people think I'm insane for the amount of attention and food I give to the fish - but it certainly makes for some success, and very happy healthy fish. I hope your experiences, both locally and mail-order, turn around, and that you have fewer fish lost as your tank matures - but please try to keep an open mind about "who's to blame" for an ill or dead fish.

[r&g]

do you find that petco.com is also one of the better places to buy coral?

or are they (lfs and other online vendors) about all the same when it comes to coral?

Thanks, rhonda

[+etannert]

Shane at Fishy Business told me something interesting once. He orders from the same distributor as many other LFS but he has a special deal with Southwest Airlines that they will not break down his pallet until it's brought out onto the loading dock. He says he's talked to multiple cargo handlers from every company (UPS, FedEx, airlines, USPS, etc.) that say that regardless of how the box is marked, every box gets thrown around in cargo break-down areas. Because his pallets are not unwrapped and broken apart until they're on the loading dock, the boxes of fish miss being tossed back and forth and dropped like the rest. He said that when he was able to get this deal with Southwest, he noticed a difference in the very next shipment of fish that came in to his store.

Not trying to push one LFS over another, I've bought from several and I've gotten good advice and help from all, but if you are ordering from a wholesaler yourself (as Hydro mentions in his PetCo thread), it might be worth calling whatever airline your fish are coming in on and trying to make special arrangements for the handling of your shipment.

[+cyrus]

I wouldn't say every petco has experienced staff to deal with salt either. I bought a MADRIN (WTF) from petco yesterday as a mercy buy. The fish was sluggish and stressed. Despite putting him in a tank with thousands of pods in it she was dead the next day. I'm not saying I didn't expect it, but they just shouldn't order fish that require that level of care. I almost have enough nerve to go get a second job there. Thats almost as ignorant as a LFS that will remain un-named that had a pygmy octopus in an open tank last yr. DON'T stock it if you can't handle it!

[Robb in Austin]

@Cryus;

Don't do it(the job that is). There was a thread on RC(I think), last year IIRC, and some folks posting on it mentioned that management at Petco didn't care and would not let experienced SW folks take better care of the tanks.

I've also thought about mercy buying at Petco and will not do it. 1) Too worried about introducing nasties into my tank and B) by buying from them it only encourages them to continue to stock SW items.

[pbnj]

He says he's talked to multiple cargo handlers from every company (UPS, FedEx, airlines, USPS, etc.) that say that regardless of how the box is marked, every box gets thrown around in cargo break-down areas.

+1

Back in college, I worked the graveyard shift for one of the big shippers as a part-time loader. Coveyer belts would dump sorted packages of all shapes and sizes into the tractor-trailer I was in and I had to stack them all nice and snug (by myself). Kinda like a real-life game of Tetris. I honestly didn't have time to look if something was fragile or not because if the conveyer belt got backed-up, you had to hear it from the shift supervisors. Have you ever seen the episode of "I Love Lucy" where she's pulling chocolates off the conveyer and wrapping them?

I think the word "Fragile" actually irritates some of those guys.

[caferacermike]

Shane at Fishy Business told me something interesting once. He orders from the same distributor as many other LFS but he has a special deal with Southwest Airlines that they will not break down his pallet until it's brought out onto the loading dock.

innerestering.

Hmmmm.... Well I've had many a order come through Southwest from "Vendor" and I can tell you for fact that our packages have come through clean as a whistle. As for "special" treatment, well I don't want to call anyone a liar for what they are saying, but.... Well I've been there to pick up my order and the pallet was shuttled to the door, an employee then cut away the the thin plastic that "our" vendor used to keep the ENTIRE pallet held together, once it was cut we quickly sorted through what belonged to the Big3, a smaller store I shall not name , and my stuff. As in, all of our orders came in on 1 pallet and had to be separated. As in, none of the LFS had to worry that their order in particular was abused more than another shop's was. Yes your guy may be telling the "truth per say", however it's the same pretty much for all of us. If Southwest was Hulk Smashy Smashy all of our packages and we were all suffering massive amounts of losses, this would either lead to huge claims for loss with SW and they would change their practices or our "Vendor" would not allow us to use them for fear of claims.

BTW, if you were ever wondering, my largest order was 12 large boxes of goods. That's a lot of goods, in fact the entire bed of a Ranger. What I'm getting on about is that I've been there. I know what I'm talking about. I've made the orders, I've seen them come in, I've unwrapped them.

[caferacermike]

I do want to add, and this is why it's in another reply, that Shane has a nice little store over there. He creeped me out when I went in to shop and I've never been back since, however from what I could see, it appears that his shop is a little more hands on. This may lead to fewer fish in more tanks, much better acclimation procedures, and a lot more downtime to maintain the tanks and fish. This can be a good thing and therefore you may indeed be getting fish that have been acclimated much better and may indeed be a lot more stress free. This is certainly a good thing and if you shop there, I certainly encourage that you continue if you are thus far satisfied.

[+etannert]

LOL, Mike. As I said in my original post, I shop in all the LFSs and have not been any more or less happy with one over another. I figure this hobby is small and I follow the 'sandbox' rule... don't crap in the sandbox cause we all have to play in it (i.e. don't spread rumors or piss people off cause it all comes back around). I like Shane and yeah, he takes some getting used to, but I also like the guys at the other LFSs. I just found Shane's story interesting and if you say it's the same for every other local distributor, all the better for the fish... which is our real concern, right?

[Derekreefer]

+1 all the better for the fish... which is our real concern, right. It should be anyway.

[Tallspawn]

Hey Mike, maybe I should know this but I'm pretty new to ARC, where do you sell your livestock?

[caferacermike]

I don't. I'm not a retail outlet. I don't have a shop. I'm just a dewd with some old timey connections. I'll PM you more information of how we used to do things.

I recommend Prof, however he has not been placing as many orders as he used to, for great deals, odd fish, and just general old school hobbyist.