OgreMkV

Even though photosynthesis is only using the blue and red parts of the spectrum I don't see a problem with looking at the green. There are florescing pigments in corals that absorb light in the green and are reemiting it.

Yes, but those do not impact photosynthesis except in a very minor way (less than 50% absorption), most is reflected.

As will said, there are two things to consider:

Photosynthesis

and

Aesthetics

There are different requirements for each.

Hydro, did you read the article i posted (and I think someone else reposted)?

The LED has 2/3rds the PAR at only 1/3rd the power.

Cost wise, a new MH bulb every 6 months ($75 or so a pop), a reflector ($150-$250), the ballast ($150 or so). I think LEDs are pretty comparable price wise, even if you have to replace the lamps every 18 months or so (between $3 and $8 per, but that price is coming down quickly). Plus there are the environmental costs.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I think LEDs are quite comparable to MH and slightly edge out T5s and are way better than PCs.

Quantitative comparison of lighting systems

Try this...

P.S. You're welcome to come over sometime and take a look at my lights. I won't be home this weekend, but shoutd be available anytime after that and we're hosting the September ARC meeting.

I've heard way too many different figures for the comparioson between LEDs and MH. I'd say that a light meter would be the better choice, rather than an estimate like that. Maybe a camera shop would loan a light meter or let us test fixtures there? A PAR meter would be even better, that would let us compare apples to apples. Let me see if I can find something research like...

My LED fixture was about $400. It's a maxspect G1 160W fixture. The G1s have been replaced with G2s, but the wattage is comparable, the G2s just use better LEDs and have moon lights.

We'd also need to consider placement depth as that's an important part of available light and the photo period.

I don't have anything but a display tank, so the frag would have to go in that. I'm running 8 hours at full power, then another hour (30 min morning and evening) with 54W of actinics only.

Hydro,

The information above is for all photosynthetic organisms. Whether it's a pine tree, photosynthetic bacteria, or corals (the symbiotic parts at least), they all use chlorophyll alpha and chlorophyll beta, some also use Beta carotene, but that's another story and really more about the chemical precursors to the chlorophyll compounds.

That being said, I'm sure that some organisms may have more of one type of chlorophyll than another organism, but the 420-460nm and 680nm is really best for anything that's photosynthetic.

As far as the first experiment goes, I just don't have room for another tank (rental house here), but I'd be willing to take a coral frag for a period of time. There's so many difference though, that the test results would be basically meaningless. Feeding schedule, other nutrients in the water, I even have a pair of stupid clown gobies that like to sit in SPSs and may harass them. One possibbility would be to take your nano cube and put a piece of black PVC down the middle and put an LED on one side and a MH on the other.

Count me in as an experimenter.

To remove as much of the uncertainty as possible, we'd need to get all shots using a single camera. (I'll volunteer my Nikon point and shoot, it's good for this sort of thing) and we'd both have to do initial chemistry checks (as much as possible) and a PAR meter would be really helpful. Otherwise, we'd need to do the water checks every few days and keep a log along with pics.

There are a few potential areas of concern: the afore mentioned gobies and the fact that I have a difficult time keeping calcium above 300. Magnesium is good, but calcium stays low for some reason.

My understanding is that you could have a million lumens and photosynthetic organisms can still starve. The light must be in the correct wavelengths.

Consider the following:

This diagram (taken from here: Photosynthesis and light wavelengths) shows that photosynthesis is greatest in the 420-460nm (nanometers) wavelengths, with another strong peak at 660-68nm. The top graph shows that at 420 and 680, almost 100% of incoming light is absorbed (by different chlorophyll molecules). Between about 520nm and 660nm less than 50% of the light hitting the organism is absorbed (this would be why plants look 'green' as green is 492nm to 577nm).

So 50% of the energy of any bulb that puts out green light is wasted... as far as photosynthesis is concerned. In terms of MH lamps, that's wasted energy and wasted heat for no real reason.

The OP is correct in that LEDs generally generate a very specific frequency of light (same thing with an actinic T-5 or PC bulb). However, the ability to place many different LED and varying (and photosynthetically important) wavelengths give it a slight advantage (IMHO) over MH.

So, a very well designed LED fixture with multiple lamps mostly in the 420-460nm range and the 660-680nm range will provide the best possible lighting for the organism. Other lighting may be required to make you think the tank is pretty. Those 15,000K - 20,000K bulbs for example, produce a beautiful effect in the tank for us, but aren't really all that different for the organisms than a 6500K bulb.

Check this graph out:

OK, this is really more about blackbody radiation, but the center of the colored area has a line that shows how the Kelvin (K) temperature rating of a blackbody (light bulb is close enough for our purposes) relates to the color of light (the line around the outside of the colored area shows the wavelength).

You can see that anything about about 6500K is mostly blue, which is what drives photosynthesis anyway.

I hope that helps a little.

First, let me say this. I'm not an expert in lighting systems, but I am a scientist and I can do research.

I would suggest this page: Aquarium Lighting

It gives an in-depth discussion of all factors of aquarium (both fresh and salt) lighting and the descriptions of various lighting methods. This is the main reason that I chose to go with LEDs.

Now, with my LED set-up, I've got 2 30-Watt white LED spots (running at roughly 18,000K). There are 14 3-Watt whites (6500K) and 14 3-Watt actinics (420 nanometers). The 420s and the 6500Ks are EXACTLY what photosynthetic organisms (all of them) need. There's not a whole lot of variation in photosynthetic organisms, that's what they need. The 18,000Ks are for the looks.

I can only tell you my experience with LEDs as I've never run MH. I love the LEDs. The whole unit is cool to the touch all the time.

When I had a 96W power compact lamp, I was given a small frag of birdsnest SPS. It did OK at the very top of the tank, it maybe doubled in length in 4 months. I put in 160W LEDS and moved the birds nest to the bottom of the tank, it has still grown like gangbusters. Like so:

December (acquisition of birds nest under PCs)

January (still PCs) (upper middle right, next to the intake tube)

March (aqusition of LEDs) - this pic was the day after I got the LEDs, so no real influence of LEDs yet

Sometime in May (LEDs and moved to the bottom of the tank)

Since then, I've added some really nice, heavy lighting requirement corals and they are doing fine under the LEDs. Added bonus, I won't have to even think about changing light bulbs for another 12 months. They say 5 years, but I'm being conservative and planning to upgrade half the lamps in 8 months or so and the rest about this time next year. I'll be upgrading them to the same wattage, but higher lumen units.

double post

Hi guys, this is my first time selling on the forum, so be gentle.

Leathers = $30

Green Strip mushroom colony = $30 (Aquaria Central has them for $35 per)

I've got a small leather... there are actually two on this rock. A good picture of another green stripe mushroom is in this pic.

There's also a small shell with 3 green stripe mushrooms on it. One is nickel to quarter size, the other is dime size, the third is eraser sized. There may be a fourth, but it would be really small. Sorry for the crummy picture. These have been on the rock for months, so they are very well attached.

Derry's Eye of Ra's are great and the dragon's eyes too. My colony was growing very quickly until I fracked them up. My wife's PMing you about more dragon eye and the blow pop.

Well, we ended up losing the blow pops and about half the dragon eyes... darn it.

The Eye of Ra zoas seem to be recovering, the armors are fine. I'm not sure about the green goblins. They haven't reopened at all.

Everything else in the tank seems to be OK. We've been running carbon for almost 48 hours now, so the toxins should be out.

My two newest SPSs haven't come out yet, but it's probably a combo of the toxins and transport shock.

In conclusion... H2O2 dip... didn't work so well.

I haven't put a blog post up in a while, so here goes...

I'm sure that you are intensely curious about how the LED lights are working out. Otherwise, you'd be off reading LOLcats or something. I'm glad you asked.

Personally, I think the light is great. I guess it's been about two months now. I've worked the lights up to a nearly full schedule with the blues only on for about 9 hours and the blues and whites on for 8 hours.

There is a very noticable shimmer effect. However staring at the tank with the blues (inspite of the beautiful florescence from the zoas) hurts my eyes and makes me dizzy... but then I'm subject to vertigo).

We've had to rearrange a fair bit of the tank because of the new lights. A couple of mushrooms have basically disappeared by burying themselves in the live rock. On the other hand, if there is any shade, the mushrooms are growing and reproducing rapidly (we won't have to frag any for the next swap, there are plenty of babies). THe star polpys are likewise very diminished because of the light. We've moved the leather from the top of the tank to the bottom and it seems happier.

We've added a couple of more zoas (mostly low) and another SPS... with another one on the way.

Here's the best example of growth in the tank. A birdnest coral. Here it is right before Christmas (2009)

March 20th

Here it is as of May 1

I went ahead and put mine up. I've been working on it off and on for a while now. Feel free to hold it until May.

Sorry, I guess that might help huh.

45 gallon pent tank

I've got a fair bit of coral for the tank (mostly softies and zoas, but a few LPS as well).

160 LED

2 clownfish (percs)

2 yellow clown gobies

and the aforementioned blenny.

That's about it.

I only have room for either a Remora skimmer or the HOB. If i had a skimmer that doesn't have a wide splash lip (i.e. tubing for intake and outflow), then I might be able to fit a skimmer as well.

I won't be adding a sump. I just don't have the room.

Well, since we got fish, I (and the missus) have been guilty of over feeding. It's very hard not too.

Anyway, so now we're growing great quantities of prize winning brown hair algae. The new Tail-spot blenny loves it, but he's already fatter than anything and can't handle all of it.

I know I have to get a skimmer. That's next on the equipment list (sigh). Would you guys suggest replacing the HOB filter entirely with the skimmer or have both? (I do have a powerhead with a sponge filter too.)

I have a 'algae brush' which is a piece of foam with a long handle on it. It captures some of the algae, but a fair bit gets into the water column and I'm afraid it will become a nitrogen emitter in the filter.

The magfloat, just scrapes algae into the water column. Besides, the snails have laid eggs all over it and I don't want to move it right now.

I also have a phosphate removing pad that I put into the filter on rare occasions to starve off the algae, but I need some of the algae for the blenny (or will there still be enough for him?)

Any other suggestions (other than a 3day no light run)?

CuC is the tail-spot (algae eating) blenny, 3 ceriths, and 2 nassarius (which don't eat algae).

Thanks!

Do we submit here, to an e-mail or is there a place in the FAQ to submit?

Hi guys,

So I'm noticing that I've got bubbles forming in the tank now that I've added fish and the bubbles are staying on the surface. So, I guess it's time to add a skimmer.

I need one that is HOB and has the pump on the outside of the tank (not hanging on the inside). This would be for a 45G pent tank with a pair of clowns, two yellow gobies, and a tail-spot blenny (plus assorted corals).

Thanks

Are these shipped to individuals or to one person and we'll have to pick them up?

OK, I'm trying fish one more time. If it doesn't work, I don't know what else to do. Different source this time.

We bought a pair of Ocellaris clowns and a pair of yellow clown gobies.

I also got a frag of an acropora of some type. Pics forthcoming.

OK. What's 'digi'?

Hi guys, I need help. I've never fragged anything before (one attempt gone horribly awry). So, I've got about 10 of these pretty blue and purple mushrooms and I just don't know how to frag them.

I tried on some ugly red shrooms. I cut them near the top, patted them dry, glued them to a frag plug and two days later, there was nothing there.

Any advice, tool list, etc would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Kevin

I just got my LEDs going so I want to try adding another SPS to my tank. I've got a birdsnest and it's doing fantastic.

I have a Coralife 20" PC fixture with a new bulb (less than a month old). It's 96W and has both actinic and 10K parts of the bulb (one of the 4 part bulbs, 2 actinic, and 2 10K).

I would probably be interested in trading my two leathers (on one rock) for some kind of SPS as well.

I'll get a picture up shortly.

Let me know what you have available.

Thanks

Kevin

Wow. These lights are great... not sure if it's the power, the color spectrum, the intensity, or what, but the corals are obviously much happier. My Armor-of God zoas have fully opened for the first time in months. The Eye-of-Ra zoas are doing the same.

I accidentally hit the leather with a 30W and it sucked in super fast. I moved the lights and it's already back up.

The LEDs are not actually dimmable. The programming is based on the timee and their are three choices (all off, blues on, whites on). Right now, my PCs were running from 11:00A to 9:30P. The LEDs are set to the following:

blues on at 10:30

whites on at 12:00

whites off at 17:00

blues off at 18:30

That's five hours of white and 8 of blue (420-470nm).

I was thinking about getting a full glass top for the tank, but I'm going to wait as the plastic top that's on now may be helping attenuate the intensity of the LEDs.

This unit is the G1 maxspect 160W. The G1s are basically old models and no longer available, so I got it much cheaper. The G2s have the same wattage, but have three timers (you can fire the twin 30s seperately from the other whites and blues). The G2s also come with 4 1W violet moon lights.

Does anyone have a suggestion for light cycle times? I was thinking of running the blues for 9 hours and the whites for 7 or so and see what happens. I am very nervous about killing off the lower light corals. I can't move many of them because they are pretty well attached.

Thanks for the help.

Kev

I just got home from a business trip and the lights cam in at the same time I was flying out. So here's the first pics. no real review yet except this seems like a solid piece of equipment. There's really no 'cheap

feeling from anything here. I will say that this is G1, not the G2. So I don't have moonlights (no big deal) and there's no separate programing for the pair of 30W LED floods. On the other hands, shipped, this units was less than $500. And a rough time between LED replacement of 24 months is pretty impressive.

The lighting unit is actually much smaller than the 20" PC fixture it will replace and much lighter too. The LEDs are very thin and the rest of the unit is a pair of fans and a HUGE aluminum heat sink. THe powersupply and programmer are a separate unit.

On to the pics

unboxing (mounting rails on top, side attach rails already on unit., hanging gear in bag, power supply on left)

the lights themselves (the big panels are the 2 30W whites, the others are half blues and half whites)

Tank with current 96W PC (dual actinic and 10K) fixture

Tank with LEds (whites and blues)... there is a noticable shimmer in the water column and these pics really do not show the glowing of the corals. Even the mushrooms are glowing (well, some of them).

♠

Tank with just blues

Very nice!

I think they have this for like $600 on MarineDepot.

MD has the panorama. I was looking at that, but this was slightly cheaper and seemed to have better PAR values.

If anyone has a PAR meter, then I'll be willing to put up test results.