reefman Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Other than aesthetics? Are there any other advantages? For those of you that helped me move the tank this weekend, I am getting to dislike this closed loop system more and more, by the day. Before I decide to can it, and get me some Tunze Streams or Nano-streams, I want to make sure I'm not missing anything. Also, what is the turn-over calculation for the sump? Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headless_donkey Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Your closed loop adds crazy flow! My understanding is it adds flow without increasing the volume of water through your sump. If the water is flowing through the sump too fast the filtration won't be as effective. In your case it also keeps the pump out of the tank decrease the temp. Why don't you like the closed loop? I think turn to calculate the sump turn over: 1)find the volume of the sump 2)find the volume of water movement of your pump (capacity - head loss) there you have it! the sump can't turn over faster then the return pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted January 12, 2007 Author Share Posted January 12, 2007 PM'd you. I still don't understand how much GPH I need to figure for the tank/sump return. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 A good general rule is 5x the volume of the tank should go through the sump hourly. This is much slower than many people run but it cuts down on noise, salt creep, and allows you to have a smaller sump and return pump. It also allows your skimmer to stay in contact with the nutrients longer and the sump becomes a settling chamber for detritus. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted January 12, 2007 Author Share Posted January 12, 2007 Thanks John. That helps big time in figuring what I want to do. For total tank turnover for a tank that is going to be primarily SPS, should I figure 40x, or more? Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 It's hard to give you an exact number for total tank turnover but 40 is probably a good start. What you're trying to do, is create a tank with no dead spots, and plenty of random flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 John did an excellent job of helping you figure out your sump but your main question I think was do you like close loop better than Tunze streams. That's a tough one as I do like some Tunze. For my 400g I'm planning on 3 of the 5,000gph Tunze's on controllers. I want it so that at any time 2 of them are on and in a random pattern. The thing about closed loops that turns me off is that you need a very expensive device like an Ocean Motions wave maker to make it a random return instead of just a constant flow. They are expensive and from what I've read, very prone to breakdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Mike nailed it dead on. Closed loops are expensive to install, and difficult to maintain (unless you use tons of true unions ballvalves which make it even more expensive). IME you cannot get the wide of flow of tunze stream through a closed loop, unless you build a completely ridiculous one like Greenmako's. Hopefully Brian (Greenmako) will chime in and tell you a ballpark figure for his closed loop because it was way more expensive than I had thought initially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 Without hurting my ability to sell off these pumps here or on the "other" site, I think I have already made my decision. I talked to Bruce today at Aquatek, and I will be starting by getting an Ehiem 1272 from him tomorrow for the tank/sump return. I would be getting 2 Tunze 6100's and the Multicontroller 7095, but he and Tunze here are out of stock for the next couple of weeks. I'm going to try to make up the flow with a couple of Mag 4's I have. If that doesn't work, and I can't wait a couple of weeks, I will order the Tunze's from Marine Depot, unless anyone has one or two they want to sell. I have seen, experienced, and now dealt with closed loop systems , and have painfully realized they are not for me. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Eheim 1262? Roger from Tunze is out of stock for the 6100's. Nothing you can really do but wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 I too was like whoowee Eheim came out with a 1272? I gotta have one. 1262 is considered the bad motha and difficult to get a hold of. The 1260 is common. 1262's rock my socks. Oh and hey, just for fun, what pumps and such? I'm buying up used equipment to have around for when I sort out the new 400g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 I judiciously wrote it down on a card, and of course now I can't find the card. You may be right, it may be the Ehiem 1262. Bruce recommended an even slower flow rate for the tank-sump-return than you did, but I'm trying to hit the medium but also making sure its big enough for the larger tank when I get it set up. My jaw dropped when he told me I would only need 3/4 inch PVC or tubing, considering the huge piping I have now. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Sump rates are not considered to be tank flow rates. I have a 1262 as my return for my 75g but when I got it I thought it'd be enough flow for my entire tank. Since I have a built in fuge I teed off from the pump to the fuge. This allows the water to overflow back into the skimmer chamber creating a sort of recirculation. this slows down the amount of water cycling in the main tank but allows the water a second chance at meeting the skimmer. For main flows I use Tunze 6060's on a wave maker timer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefman Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 OK, so when I start to figure the tank flow rate I need, I should totally disregard the flow rate part that I have going to and returning from the sump? Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 It's a relative comparison. If you said you had 600GPH turnover from your sump in your 120g then you'd have a decent turnover for your sump but that would be paltry in comparison to your actual flow needs. If you said you had 6,000 GPH in your 12,000G tank, well sure 6,000GPH might sound like a lot until you actually figure out how much current you'd need in that 12,000g tank. So unless you have a 6,000GPH return pump on your 120g, but then the water would be ripping through your sump so fast that the important stuff probably wouldn't be happening. Like if you add a chiller to your tank and the manufacturer recommended a 400gph pump. Well adding a 800gph pump does not make the chiller twice as effective, in fact it makes it half as effective as with the right pump. There just isn't enough contact time to transfer the heat to the coils and then blow it off with the fan. So would you even bother calculating the 400GPH into your systems configuration? If you want 3,000GPH internal tank flow then I'd say no, why bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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