subsea Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Pardon my cynical outlook (pragmatic). I am sure that American Capitalism embraces "There is a sucker born every second". Have a bodacious day. Pat C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Huh? Ok then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offroadodge Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I say WHO CARES..... we are only here for a short time do with it what the hell you wanna. If you wanna water the yard DO IT!!! If you wanna pay for it and let it go back to the city to be reused again DO IT!!!!!!!! WE are only mice in a big playground full of CATS!!!! GOOD DAY!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Daniel Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 Well, I'm not going to do this as planned anymore. I'll go with the time-tested route and fill up a large vat to water the lawn. My only question at this point is how the retail system works-- does it simply operate under the idea that only a small volume of waste water will be produced since it will be filling a small RO storage tank? So would this only be practical if small amounts of RO are produced (less than 5 gallons)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Daniel Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Mike, I need a translation: Question to Watts Technical Support: "Assuming I am not using a pressurized tank to store my water, but instead using a 20 gallon bucket, can I safely use your setup to add the waste water (possibly 100+ gallons) back into my hot water pipes? Isn't this a closed system with the inability to have over 100 gallons added to it?" Answer from Watts Technical Support: "Yes, it can, because the water will not OVERFILL the piping but FLOW AROUND in a circulation pattern inside the piping. Because of the circulation flow that set-up causes, if you ran the system enough, you could put MILLIONS of gallons back into your piping. If you need any further assistance, please call our tech support at 1-800-752-5582." What is this guy saying? Millions of gallons flowing around my piping? What the...? Is there a mechanism to allow the waste water back into the city's supply side? That would be lame...especially if I'm already paying for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 See if this makes sense... If you have a small, drinking water system, say 4g. At best case you would produce 4g of 'waste' water for every gallon of drinking water. The only way the waste water from the RO system will flow into the hot water system is for there to be room in the hot water system. This happens every time we turn on the hot water to shower, wash our hands, clothes, dishes, etc. We probably use much more hot water than we do drinking water, so in the zero waste system the RO unit will only produce water (filtered and waste) when hot water is being used. This should work fine if you are storing and using a small amount of drinking water. In the 4:1 scenario the zero waste setup will only be able to produce 1/4 the amount of filtered water as the hot water you use every day. In my house I often use 30+ gallons of RODI water in a day, not every day but often enough that I need it available. That means I would have to use120g of hot water for every 30g of RODI water I use. I know that my household can't sustain that kind of hot water usage. So the zero waste system won't work for me. I like my RODI to be as on demand as possible, therefore it runs 24/7 and maintains my auto top off and keeps a 30g reserve on hand. An auto shut off is the best way I know to minimize waste. In the case of the inline RO membrane, I don't see how you could cut your waste in half. I would expect and increase in production but I don't see how it could be as high as 50%. Warming your input water will make your RODI system more efficient. Melev suggests coiling input tubing through a 5g bucket with an aquarium heater to achieve this. I don't know the math on this but I would expect to use enough electricity to offset any savings from the efficiency gained. RO works best when it has good pressure (usually 60psi and up). Booster pumps are needed if your city water does not have enough pressure but standard for most places is 60psi. Don't overlook basic maintenence for efficiency's sake. Keeping good filters and membranes will make any RODI system work better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I cannot comment. There is not enough information. What products are you referring to? Are you buying a custom rig job or are they simply telling you to create a venturi that "should" suck the water from a bucket into the home system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Daniel Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Sorry, I forgot to include that part when I reposted, but the email was regarding their "zero waste upgrade kit" which looks like just includes a solenoid, booster pump, and a couple of fittings. Prof, I agree with what you're saying, since this is a closed system, very little water can be added unless the hot water is being used. However, it sounds like the Watts' technician is suggesting that I can add thousands of gallons into my pipe without a problem. Specifically, what does he mean when he said "the water will not OVERFILL the piping but FLOW AROUND in a circulation pattern inside the piping. Because of the circulation flow that set-up causes, if you ran the system enough, you could put MILLIONS of gallons back into your piping." Is he simply saying that no RO water is produced when the pressure is too high, but when the hot water system is in use, and thus the pressure is lower, RO water will be produced? Because it really sounds like he's saying something else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caferacermike Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 What you just said is what I think he is saying and if you look at my previous attempts to explain that you will see that I have said the same thing. That unless you are using hot water you cannot add water to the tank. And as I was attempting to say, that the amount you would add to your storage container when you take a shower is equal to the amount I can spit. Think about it, your average shower uses maybe 10g of hot water. But keep this in mine. Your RO unit runs as a piddle. Your shower uses a lot of volume quickly. Your RO unit would not keep up and thusly would be dwarfed by the hot water "system". So think about this, if your average shower is 10 minutes and your RO unit is rated for 75GPD.... Well let's math. 75/24= 3.125g per hour. 3.125/60= 0.052g per minute of production. so 10 minutes of shower x 0.052g per minute = 0.52g Or in simple terms, if you are so lucky, you might produce a half gallon of clean RO water with a hot shower. Now this is only if everything is perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 It is just not a feasible to create a large quantatiy of water with the Watts Zero waste system. Ask Watts how their system would work if you needed to create 50g per day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 just ran into this video where he uses a 2-pass membrane and he mentions getting less waste water: talks about it @ 1:45min i just got my first barrel from austinhomebrew... waiting on #2, then i'll be trying out my 2-pass setup and can share how it works for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Daniel Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Got it, thanks. What you just said is what I think he is saying and if you look at my previous attempts to explain that you will see that I have said the same thing. That unless you are using hot water you cannot add water to the tank. And as I was attempting to say, that the amount you would add to your storage container when you take a shower is equal to the amount I can spit. Think about it, your average shower uses maybe 10g of hot water. But keep this in mine. Your RO unit runs as a piddle. Your shower uses a lot of volume quickly. Your RO unit would not keep up and thusly would be dwarfed by the hot water "system". So think about this, if your average shower is 10 minutes and your RO unit is rated for 75GPD.... Well let's math. 75/24= 3.125g per hour. 3.125/60= 0.052g per minute of production. so 10 minutes of shower x 0.052g per minute = 0.52g Or in simple terms, if you are so lucky, you might produce a half gallon of clean RO water with a hot shower. Now this is only if everything is perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 a recent RC post talking about using the BRS 2-pass setup confirming it works as advertised: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15665449#post15665449 basically, it seems the 3 things you can do to decrease waste water is 1) use a booster pump, 2) add a 2nd membrane, and/or 3) use water at a certain temp (forgot what the ideal is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 i had promised to update ya'll when i started running my 2pass setup (BRS 75gpd 5-stage setup w/ a 2nd RO membrane)... with a water pressure of 66psi, and an approximate water temp of 65F, i get about a 1.1:1 waste:rodi ratio !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Daniel Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Wow, no kidding? I have the exact same setup as you (I upgraded my original BRS kit) + booster pump, and I am not getting anything close to that. I am getting about 5 gallons every 75 minutes, or roughly 4 gallons an hour. What am I doing wrong? I have two new 75 gpd RO membranes (both are under two months) and new pre-filters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 what's your incoming pressure and temp? and my setup is entirely new... first time to use it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Daniel Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Pressure after pre-filters and booster pump are ~70psi, temp, I'm not sure...but I'm basing my flow numbers on one of the warm days a few weeks ago. I'm going to disassemble and reassemble everything. This is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 @daniel, any luck with improving your output? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Field Supply Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 (edited) You don't need to add a second membrane if all you are looking to do is reduce waste water. ANY membrane, or series of two or more membranes can be set up to run at any ratio of waste water to purified water. The 4:1 ratio we are all familiar with is a recomendation designed to protect the life span of the membrane. The ratio is controlled by your flow restrictor. Change the restrictor if you want a lower ratio. You don't need to add a second membrane to do this. Russ @ BFS Edited November 27, 2009 by Buckeye Field Supply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Daniel Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Well, I haven't been on the forums much lately, but I just saw Russ' response. I'll take a closer look when I am home, but what does the flow restrictor look like? To be honest, I didn't even know I had one. I have one of the BRS models, but I'm not sure which model off the top of my head-- do they all include a flow restrictor? This makes me laugh. I bought a $110 booster pump and a $50 extra RO membrane kit. If my issues could have been solved with a simple restrictor adjustment, I think I'll kick myself. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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